tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post110661180553401587..comments2024-03-18T22:43:28.754-05:00Comments on Beis Vaad L'Chachamim: Tazria, Prenatal InfluencesEliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-61592042746896694882011-03-29T12:38:41.327-05:002011-03-29T12:38:41.327-05:00@DevorahYou're exactly right. Faith is necessa...@Devorah<br><br>You're exactly right. Faith is necessary as a prerequisite for keeping the mitzvos. That's why we have it. But faith does not play the same role in Judaism as it does in Christianity, where according to some, it is the only means of attaining salvation. Just compare how many pesukim talk about how to perform mitzvos vs how many discuss the nature of G-d or belief. It's pretty much limited to "Anochi Hashem" and "Shema Yisrael". As far as the 13 principles are concerned, they are hardly the last word on Jewish beliefs that many would have you believe. The Rambam himself had very different ideas as to what the principles meant as compared with how we think of them today (in particular regarding schar v'onesh). According to many the very notion that some ideas are more important than others is heretical. The point is that the 13 principles are a fine guideline but I'd still give an aliya to someone who disagreed with certain (but not all) principles, over someone who is michallel shabbos b'farhesiaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-50913440601787004522011-03-29T12:26:56.180-05:002011-03-29T12:26:56.180-05:00Devorah, although I can speak anonymously, I can&#...Devorah, although I can speak anonymously, I can't speak for Anonymous. But let me say this: people convince themselves superficially of all sorts of things. But when it comes to deep faith, you never really know what someone believes, not even yourself. The only way to really know, is to see the hard decisions a person makes under pressure. There was the famous Vilner Apikores, who was right-wing frum, while espousing the most anti-religious philosophy. It can be argued that as long as you believe in Torah MiSinai and Torah She'ba'al peh, and you do the mitzvos, then you're a believer, whether you like it or not.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-91471015858416093302011-03-29T11:55:46.722-05:002011-03-29T11:55:46.722-05:00Quoting Anonymous: "Judaism is, and always wa...Quoting Anonymous: "Judaism is, and always was, a religion of Law, not of Faith"<br><br>Doesn't sound right to me. If you have no faith, why would you keep the laws?<br>Ever heard of the 13 Principles of Jewish FAITH ?Devorahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00793434651294780439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-44180213534150114082011-03-29T11:03:50.675-05:002011-03-29T11:03:50.675-05:00Was it the Radak about whom R Yosef Ber said "...Was it the Radak about whom R Yosef Ber said "what he says is meenus, but we would count him to a minyan anyway" ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-8036031223847130862011-03-29T10:55:48.063-05:002011-03-29T10:55:48.063-05:00I'm not going to pretend that I knew that Rada...I'm not going to pretend that I knew that Radak, but it is remarkably similar to how i interpreted the stories in the Gemara in my first comment...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-32375299981013584732011-03-29T08:48:53.323-05:002011-03-29T08:48:53.323-05:00I've realized that I was to vague in what I wr...I've realized that I was to vague in what I wrote at the end of the post. I added the following to clarify it:<br><br>In light of the comments that came in, I need to expand a little on this point. Please note that the passuk in Yirmiahu goes like this:<br> בְּטֶרֶם אֶצָּרְךָ בַבֶּטֶן יְדַעְתִּיךָ, וּבְטֶרֶם תֵּצֵא מֵרֶחֶם הִקְדַּשְׁתִּיךָ<br>There are two halves in the passuk. <br>I knew you before I formed you. <br>Before you came out of the womb I sanctified you.<br>I believe that these two halves involve totally different concepts. The first half means "I, Hashem, knew that you would be a holy man and a navi. This knowledge is like any knowledge of nevu'ah, the simple fact that Hashem knows what the future holds. The second half of the passuk means "Knowing that you were going to be a tzadik and dedicated to My service, I protected you from unholy experiences."<br><br>Again, in the original post, I wrote that "This is the pshat we see in the Radak in the passuk in the beginning of Yirmiahu: the Radak says that Hashem prepared Yirmiahu for his task from the moment he was conceived. This preparation included whatever influences were necessary for a person particularly adapted for tzidkus and nevuah. The Radak adds that <br>. אביו ואמו נזהרו בקדושה וטהרה בעת ההריון שיהיה הנביא מקודש והחכם גדול" <br>But now I see that what I am suggesting is different than the Radak. The Radak is saying that his parents did all they could to ensure that he could be a tzadik. What I'm saying, and what I believe the Gemara in Yoma is saying, is that since Hashem knew that Reb Yochanan and Yirmiahu would be tzadikim, Hashem protected them from things that were tamei.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-29887024166881857952011-03-29T07:46:32.802-05:002011-03-29T07:46:32.802-05:00It is cold from a certain perspective but also com...It is cold from a certain perspective but also comforting from another. For example, from this perspective, G-d doesn't spend his time killing babies and starting wars. Evil exists not because of a divine decree that we should suffer, but because G-d gave us the gift of free will and we can use it as we please. It also means that collectively, as a species, we can one day use this G-d given gift for life, and not for death. Again, I just want to emphasize that I have no set opinion on the issue, It's just not as simple as one being the "preferred option" and the other being horrible. Of course the traditional Jewish answer given to the question of evil is "גזרה היא מלפני" but that doesn't seem to have satisfied anyone, historically.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-79351888690451208682011-03-29T07:28:55.044-05:002011-03-29T07:28:55.044-05:00But since the protocols of Hashem's relationsh...But since the protocols of Hashem's relationship to this world are most likely not determined by plebiscite, there is probably one approach that has always been true and all the others false, allowing for eilu v'eilu. <br><br>I know that "saying it's so don't make it so," but as you said about yedi'as Hashem, there are some ideas that are best filed under peculiar.<br><br>For what it's worth, I myself have always felt that shinui hateva has been concomitant and proportionate to each person's behavior in breaking his own teva, in bending it to Hashem's will. You change your derech hateva, I change derech hateva for you.<br><br>It would be a sad world indeed where Nesaneh Tokef was false advertising, where hester panim is so thorough that Hashem doesn't mix into teva and tefilla had no effect at all. To say that "maybe, maybe, Hashem will intervene on behalf of a tzibur, and even that only on extremely rare occasions, but will just leave individuals to the existential abyss of indifferent nature...." is bone-shakingly cold, if you ask me.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-80608461140388749652011-03-29T02:53:47.213-05:002011-03-29T02:53:47.213-05:00That would probably be true according to a number ...That would probably be true according to a number of Achronim, but not many of the more rationalistic Rishonim. I don't accept that because Judaism is, and always was, a religion of Law, not of Faith. Orthopraxy (correct actions) has always been more important than Orthodoxy (correct belief). Which is why we still view the Ralbag and Or HaChayim as frum Jews, regardless of their not so borderline heretical opinions...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-7002755169637124692011-03-28T22:12:45.218-05:002011-03-28T22:12:45.218-05:00"only a select elite have hashgacha pratis&qu..."only a select elite have hashgacha pratis"<br><br>Isn't it commensurate with the level of a person's faith? The more emunah, the more hashgacha pratis....Devorahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00793434651294780439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-57494093410634750602011-03-28T18:48:03.432-05:002011-03-28T18:48:03.432-05:00Ok, now I will explain what I meant in the post. O...Ok, now I will explain what I meant in the post. Of course we're not arguing about anything substantive. <br><br>When I said Hashta b'hemtam, I meant that Hashem ensures that his tzadikim are not sullied by exposure to ugly things, or at least by ingesting treif foods. <br><br>You said you have a problem with hashta b'hemtam before a person establishes himself as a tzadik. <br><br>I say that they wouldn't be less tzadik even if they were, and certainly not if their donkeys ate dmai, but it's just ma'us, and Hashem protects a tzadik from getting besmirched with treifus. Why? Maybe because they would mourn the soiling of their soul. Who knows why. But whatever it is, here you have a person that is going to be a tzadik. Hashem sees to it that he will not be sullied with dvarim asurim.<br><br>You could argue, based on the Magen Avraham that lo sa'achilum doesn't apply to food on Yom Kippur because it's not an issur cheftza, that there's no hashta be'hemtam either. But that doesn't seem to be the position of the Gemara in Yoma.Barzilaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-1358026791632450852011-03-28T15:44:32.950-05:002011-03-28T15:44:32.950-05:00and that kind of intelligent give and take, ladies...and that kind of intelligent give and take, ladies and gentlemen, is exactly why I spend so much time doing this.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-83762766671998576942011-03-28T15:41:51.356-05:002011-03-28T15:41:51.356-05:00Ok, before I respond, I just want to clear up a fe...Ok, before I respond, I just want to clear up a few things. I don't think we're really disagreeing on every point here.<br><br> 1. I do not agree with the Or Hachaim or the Ralbag in this respect (although I do find it fascinating to occasionally view G-d's interaction with man in Tanach through their lens). The simple fact is that if G-d created time then he cannot be constrained by it. period.<br><br> 2. "and since the Rambam himself agrees that Hashem does know whether a person will be a tzadik or a rasha, so what's the problem here? I AGREE that G-d knows what people will become. The problem is reading the story in the gemara to be saying "since she didnt eat on yom kippur, he was a tzadik" or "Reb Yehoshua was a Talmid Chacham because he went to the beis medrash as a child". that's nonsense. They were given certain attributes by G-d and they used them properly . I don't see whats to argue with there. <br><br> 3. The only part i disagree with you is the statement that "So since Hashem knows that X is going to be a tzadik, Hashem ensures that he is not besmirched with shkotzim and so forth..." This I have a schar v'oneish problem with. I suspect that we have a hashgacha pratis disagreement on this issue. To be honest, i don't really know the level of hashgacha pratis in the world and neither do you. I have theological issues with the idea that every circumstance we are put in is a decision from G-d. Certainly i believe all choices are our own. As far as statements about Moshe go, the Sforno explicitly says that only a select elite have hashgacha pratis (obviously Moshe falls into that category). The modern idea of hashgacha pratis as preached in mishpacha magazine is a new phenomenon. All that being said, i don't believe our entire lives are run by chance. To me, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.<br><br>One final thought- since it's all well and good to ignore Rishonim who have different hashkafos than you, surely you will grant me the ability to ignore Achronim with different hashkafos than me..<br><br>Now, am i still utterly wrong or just regular wrong? :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-85303000228972386482011-03-28T15:39:47.809-05:002011-03-28T15:39:47.809-05:00and also, the pesukim the Gemara in Yoma brings wo...and also, the pesukim the Gemara in Yoma brings would be irrelevant in making your point but on target for mine.<br><br>My assertion that there's no shame in being completely wrong is based on long and varied experience, particularly, but not limited to, things I have said on the internet.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-49537148533824877682011-03-28T14:41:55.539-05:002011-03-28T14:41:55.539-05:00First of all, this has nothing to do with Calvin. ...First of all, this has nothing to do with Calvin. We're not talking about the elect here, who can do whatever they want and get away with it because god loves them. We're talking about whether Hashem knows that a person will end up a tzadik or rasha. Assuming that Hashem does know that, as you do, since we prefer to ignore the Ohr Hachaim and the Ralbag that say that Hashem only knows the infinite possibilities till the end of time, which is a fine shitta to ignore, and since the Rambam himself agrees that Hashem does know whether a person will be a tzadik or a rasha, so what's the problem here? And even if, for the sake of argument, there were something to disagree about, which there isn't, what about the Gemara in Sota?<br><br>So since Hashem knows that X is going to be a tzadik, Hashem ensures that he is not besmirched with shkotzim and so forth. All the gemaros, like when Moshe was born the house filled with light, and on and on, just bespeak yediah, and have nothing to do with bechira.<br><br>Don't worry. There's no shame in being totally and irredeemably wrong.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-4586131816120675902011-03-28T14:27:18.802-05:002011-03-28T14:27:18.802-05:00I'm channeling whoever disagrees with Calvin (...I'm channeling whoever disagrees with Calvin (which i thought was most Jews). While I certainly admit that people are born with traits such as jealously, anger, greed, etc, and that G-d knows what they are the idea that a person is predestined to be good or evil is a disturbing idea. I suppose that Moshe and/or other leaders might be designated from birth (although i still find this problematic from a schar/v'oneish point of view) I would even go so far as to say that pesukim that express this idea have to be treated non-literally in keeping with Saadia Gaon's idea that pesukim which contradict reason can be taken as non-literalAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-51462460357152682802011-03-28T14:19:38.258-05:002011-03-28T14:19:38.258-05:00"But Hashem does know the future, and does kn..."But Hashem does know the future, and does know a person's tendencies from birth. The type of upbringing they had was also by hashgacha pratis<br><br>The type of upbringing they had was based on decisions of their parents. G-d does not control our individual actions or choices even if he know what they will be. This is as close to a universal hashkafic opinion as there is in Judaism.(Except the Ralbag who says there is no divine foreknowledge, but that's not important right now)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-56689455310157306822011-03-28T14:15:11.654-05:002011-03-28T14:15:11.654-05:00To anonymous 1:55 and 1:58, are you channeling the...To anonymous 1:55 and 1:58, are you channeling the Tiferes Yisrael or the Torah Temimah? Or the Rambam in Moreh?<br><br>What's wrong with saying what I said? What I said is, after all, what the Gemara in Sota 12b, as brought le'halacha by the Rama in YD 81:7, says about Moshe Rabbeinu, isn't it?bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-71060788150329747742011-03-28T14:07:07.409-05:002011-03-28T14:07:07.409-05:00Anonymous: (quote) The story about the 2 mothers h...Anonymous: (quote) The story about the 2 mothers has nothing to do with Hashem knowing the future or a person's tendencies from birth. Rather it shows the type of upbringing the children later had....(unquote)<br><br>But Hashem does know the future, and does know a person's tendencies from birth. The type of upbringing they had was also by hashgacha pratis.<br><br>The mother carrying the "tzadik" was a suitable mother for him...and raised him in a house fo avodas Hashem, as you say.....<br><br>We are all born to the parents most suitable for our mission in life.Devorahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00793434651294780439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-58102693683841251852011-03-28T13:57:58.968-05:002011-03-28T13:57:58.968-05:00Reb Yehoshua story also can be explained as an exa...Reb Yehoshua story also can be explained as an example of the home he grew up in, as opposed to some borderline metaphysical osmosis.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-49729465890932032512011-03-28T13:55:03.022-05:002011-03-28T13:55:03.022-05:00C. The story about the 2 mothers has nothing to do...C. The story about the 2 mothers has nothing to do with Hashem knowing the future or a person's tendencies from birth. Rather it shows the type of upbringing the children later had. One was raised in a house of avodas Hashem and dedication to Torah and Mitzvos the other was raised in what today we might call an "Orthodox Lite" home where halacha was kept, albeit begrudgingly and without a proper appreciation. (Similar to the shomer shabbos immigrants to America lesson)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-64405363152449628042011-03-28T10:18:59.429-05:002011-03-28T10:18:59.429-05:00You might be interested in this post which I just ...You might be interested in this post which I just read:<br><br>http://soullite.blogspot.com/2011/03/extra-soul.htmlDevorahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00793434651294780439noreply@blogger.com