tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post2201318120105903988..comments2024-03-28T23:20:49.777-05:00Comments on Beis Vaad L'Chachamim: רפואת הנפש ורפואת הגוף Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-43750262629297893052016-05-31T06:07:15.961-05:002016-05-31T06:07:15.961-05:00That is a great maneuver to out-flank the problem ...That is a great maneuver to out-flank the problem you yourself raised. It is akin to the tefilla on Yom Kippur ומה שחטאתי מרק ברחמיך הרבים אבל לא על ידי יסורים וחליים רעים. Excellent. Yasher Koach. It contains elements from the other teirutzim but is really different. My comments:<br />You write "we don't want to make it sound as if we are accusing Hashem of doing bad to the person by making him ill....", but I would say "we recognize that Hashem make this person ill in order to elicit his betterment." But then, of course, you run into the problem you raised on Michael's use of the Maharsha. You then try to avoid it by saying "we ask Hashem to change His plan so that the "refuas hanefesh" can be combined also with a refuas haguf as well." Ok, to me that sounds like my defense of the use of the Maharsha. In any case, it's a new answer, and bl'n after shachris I'm going to put it into the post.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-91347909070526690822016-05-31T05:51:29.797-05:002016-05-31T05:51:29.797-05:00Excellent הערה. Theמהרש"א ת is talking about...Excellent הערה. Theמהרש"א ת is talking about a symbolic act done by the person himself, which might stimulate self improvement, and my extrapolation to another's tefilla for him is invalid. In my defense, please note my reference at the end of #1 to the story of Reb Meir, who was mispallel that the hoodlums should be inspired to do teshuva. While I said that I don't have to deal with the theological quandary raised by that story for answer #1, I certainly do have to rely on that story for the Maharsha. (As it happens, the Maharsha in Brachos or in the same story in Sukkah deals with the problem.)Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-31973728451288565582016-05-31T01:13:12.235-05:002016-05-31T01:13:12.235-05:00So after giving the matter a lot of thought today,...So after giving the matter a lot of thought today, I think the following is a simple yet deep explanation that fits very well with the wording as well as with the concept of davening for "refuas hanefesh u'refuas haguf". The yesod here is that everything that happens to a person is for the good. Thus, if Hashem brings illness upon a person, this too is for his benefit. Since the illness does not bring him any physical benefit, it must be that there is a spiritual benefit i.e. the physical illness itself brings about a spiritual elevation, or "refuah" for the person's soul. (You can understand this in a number of ways, such as in terms of suffering that atones for sins, or in terms of developing positive middos like humility, etc, or in terms of the person suddenly feeling his vulnerability and needing to strengthen and deepen his connection to Hashem, etc etc) In recognition of this belief, when we daven to Hashem to heal the person's illness, we don't want to make it sound as if we are accusing Hashem of doing bad to the person by making him ill. Therefore, we incorporate into our tefillos the acknowledgement of the above-mentioned "refuas hanefesh", but we ask Hashem to change His plan so that the "refuas hanefesh" can be combined also with a refuas haguf as well. Thus the phrase "refuas hanefesh u'refuas haguf". What do you think?RNJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-62083633836845265182016-05-30T23:11:14.364-05:002016-05-30T23:11:14.364-05:00I understand that the Maharsha is saying that lear...I understand that the Maharsha is saying that learning Torah and improving one's middos can result in an improvement in one's physical health. But lichorah this is something which lies only in the control of the person who is sick, and is therefore not something that is appropriate to daven for. As a moshol, in terms of refuas haguf this would be kind of like davening that the choleh should take his pills, which is obviously inappropriate. It seems to me that when we daven for refuas hanefesh - just as when we daven for refuas haguf - it means that we are asking for Hashem to intervene because it is not something that we have the power to do on our own. How does fit with the explanation of the Maharsha?RNJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-91949171885280350862016-05-30T10:56:22.276-05:002016-05-30T10:56:22.276-05:00Abbie, we initially did not agree with your use of...Abbie, we initially did not agree with your use of the Rambam. But what you're saying turns out to be the basis of the Maharsha Michael sent in, which I'm adding to the post. Yasher Koach.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-55703576272502021942016-05-30T10:10:52.530-05:002016-05-30T10:10:52.530-05:00The Maharsha is perfect. I have to decide how to p...The Maharsha is perfect. I have to decide how to put it in.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-79556355685948224072016-05-29T13:19:49.062-05:002016-05-29T13:19:49.062-05:00That's exciting. I'm on I-80 in Pennsylva...That's exciting. I'm on I-80 in Pennsylvania on the way to Chicago now, but I'm definitely interested in seeing it.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-4847352852149227572016-05-29T10:22:20.719-05:002016-05-29T10:22:20.719-05:00One mareh makom on this subject is the Maharsha to...One mareh makom on this subject is the Maharsha to Shabbos 67a. He refers to the Rambam in Shemona Perakim (Ch. 3-4), who defines "choloyei hanefesh" as related to middos and notes that they are treated in a way akin to "choloyei haguf." The Maharsha elaborates on this and explains how they are interrelated. He concludes that a refuah of middos will lead to a refuas haguf. I can't say I understand every word of the Maharsha, but perhaps you will (and can then explain it to the rest of us).Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-61189633267572081692016-05-27T14:50:04.972-05:002016-05-27T14:50:04.972-05:00That's a very clever twist on the Rambam! I...That's a very clever twist on the Rambam! I'm going to throw it out tonight bl'n and see what happens.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-69220373008365074122016-05-27T13:42:42.639-05:002016-05-27T13:42:42.639-05:00Similar to your third option, but more Maimonidean...Similar to your third option, but more Maimonidean in formulation:<br /><br />Rambam mentions that a prerequisite of נבואה, besides for the מדות he lists there, is to be שלם בגופו. (Yesodei HaTorah 7:1) Also see Deos 4:1, where he says that אי אפשר שיבין או ידע והוא חולה, and that is why he asserts that it is a חיוב to keep oneself healthy. And I recall him saying a similar thing in Moreh Nevuchim; I can try to find that source later.<br />According to that, every חולי הגוף is an automatic חולי הנפש, not of the mental imbalance/depression type, but of the נפש finding it more difficult to be משיג שלימות הנפש.Abbie Jakubovichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04811049134423509097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-15291176384800281002016-05-26T21:22:07.701-05:002016-05-26T21:22:07.701-05:00The Ramban about going to doctors is in the beginn...The Ramban about going to doctors is in the beginning of בחוקותי, in 26:11, but he says that when we are all צדיקים גמורים then Hashem is noheig with us למעלה מדרך הטבע and prevents any accident or illness. I don't think that the possibility of being like Malachim and thus immune to frailty justifies calling anyone less as needing a רפואת הנפש. Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-17274264074553322942016-05-26T20:37:58.141-05:002016-05-26T20:37:58.141-05:00Please find it.Please find it.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-47035629822400508652016-05-26T20:11:28.172-05:002016-05-26T20:11:28.172-05:00I always thought the simple pshat was along the li...I always thought the simple pshat was along the lines of the Ramban that every physical machalah is really a sympton of a spiritual machalah. That's why we ask for refuas hanefesh and refuas haguf. I don't remember where the Ramban in chumash says this but I am pretty sure I have seen it or heard it before.Avrohomnoreply@blogger.com