tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post2788289679065007037..comments2024-03-28T23:20:49.777-05:00Comments on Beis Vaad L'Chachamim: Korach. How are We Supposed to Know?Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-82845348461535807592013-06-11T04:03:05.273-05:002013-06-11T04:03:05.273-05:00I understand your point regarding shogeg vs Oneis,...I understand your point regarding shogeg vs Oneis, but at least for someone's who knows BD are mistaken it's clear why he's Meizid. This is the case in korach, as they knew first hand MR was endorsed by HashemElihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-87822606501195292592013-06-10T10:08:35.795-05:002013-06-10T10:08:35.795-05:00Chaim, I was just talking to someone that noticed ...Chaim, I was just talking to someone that noticed that a recent likut sefer quoted a tshuva from the Mahari Bruna that an akum doesn't have kinyan agav, only a Yisrael. He looked up the teshuva and found that it's there, but that was the opinion of the guy asking the question. The Mahari Bruna himself says the opposite.<br><br>You can't trust anyone. I think that it's because someone reads the teshuva, and something there appeals to him, and that's what sticks in his mind.<br><br>On that topic, the NB I mentioned does say there's a difference between relying on a Psak where they were simply mattir something for you, and relying on a psak where the Beis Din told you davka to do it their way, and they told you that you davka should not be machmir. But that was something the man who wrote to him proposed. He says this is a good svara, but then he goes on to say the chiluk you mentioned.<br><br>Whenever I think of the NB, I remember the first chiluk, because the second one, the first time I read it, made my head spin. Who cares whether the cause of the oneis is a sheker, or a ta'us? By Lanaara lo saaseh davar the cause of the oneis is also a sheker- the beheima that was me'aneis her.<br><br>In any case, I was referring to the first chiluk. I'll be more careful in the future.<br><br>Also, it's in YD 96, not EH, as, obviously, you realized.Barzilai/Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-39513899612907180142013-06-10T08:25:43.794-05:002013-06-10T08:25:43.794-05:00Since you mention the Noda b'Yehudah, can you ...Since you mention the Noda b'Yehudah, can you explain why you don't like his answer? Your approach works for the case of beis din, but he also asks from the case of a women who marries based on the testimony of eidim who them prove to be liars - why in that case is she chayeves a korban. The Torah allows you to rely on testimony -- how can you be chayav a korban for doing so?Chaim B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-19138025558397228102013-06-09T21:50:38.757-05:002013-06-09T21:50:38.757-05:00Again, using the Gemara in Horyos, it's clear ...Again, using the Gemara in Horyos, it's clear that although Rav Yehuda in the Mishna calls an innocent person that accepts Beis Din's psak an Annus, and pattur from a Chatas, we pasken like the Chachamim there on Amud Beis, that he's not called annus. But that's incomprehensible! Of course he's an annus! He's not smarter than the whole Sanhedrin, so why isn't he entitled to rely on them, to assume that they know more than him and acharei rabbim etc?<br><br>The only answer I know, and I know it's inconsistent with the Noda Beyehuda in EH II 96, is that since you could have learned and known better than the Sanhedrin, you're not called an annus. You're a shogeig. Even though right now there's no way you can know more than them, you could have been like Moshe Rabbeinu if you had properly applied yourself. So you're not called annus, but rather shogeig.<br><br>Maybe that's what they mean. If you had been a tzadik gammur, and a navi, and a Moshe Rabbeinu, you would have known the right thing to do. You weren't, so you didn't, and that's your fault. It's like the discussion we had about shikor, who is so drunk he doesn't know what he's doing, but he knew, when he got drunk, that it's likely that he'll do something awful. Like Lot the second night, where the Torah criticizes him for drinking again.Barzilai/Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-83975247393473847422013-06-09T21:22:26.329-05:002013-06-09T21:22:26.329-05:00Wouldn't you agree that in a case of הורו בית ...Wouldn't you agree that in a case of הורו בית דין ששקעה חמה, אין זו הוראה אלא טעות someone who knows for sure that he see's the sun will be called Meizid? Even in cases of הוראה בהלכה, it seems clear from Horayos 2b that one who knows BD are wrong is called Shogeg only if he mistakenly thinks he has to listen to Gedolim in such a case. Otherwise, he is Meizid regardless of what the he heard from them.<br>Elihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-11664473170553677822013-06-09T19:42:10.646-05:002013-06-09T19:42:10.646-05:00Given who and who did not participate in the demon...Given who and who did not participate in the demonstration today, this post is most propitiously timed.great Unknownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15728976902210831137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-25752569088807349312013-06-09T18:20:25.371-05:002013-06-09T18:20:25.371-05:00BTW, your comment may leave people thinking that h...BTW, your comment may leave people thinking that he fought to take the money. It was precisely the opposite: he felt it would be inappropriate for himself to take anything. And he fought very strongly against pressure by people who were trying to give him the money.<br><br>His lifestyle, BTW, is very modest even by Geulah standards.great Unknownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15728976902210831137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-46356998222277109782013-06-09T18:15:40.790-05:002013-06-09T18:15:40.790-05:00Do you have his name for tefillos?Do you have his name for tefillos?great Unknownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15728976902210831137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-8637591466301354392013-06-09T17:40:17.799-05:002013-06-09T17:40:17.799-05:00I'm sorry, this is hilchesa limshicha. Yes, i...I'm sorry, this is hilchesa limshicha. Yes, if one was absolutely honest and knew himself and was humble and wise, he would be able- and obligated!- to know the right path. If one is slightly imperfect, he absolutely cannot trust himself. So who are they talking to?People like Chaim Goldberg? Maybe.<br><br>Chaim Goldberg: Dovid Leib Cohen's partner in running a multi-million dollar chesed in Yerushalayim. Learns all day when he's not running after poor people. Fought with my father zatzal about whether he could take a few dollars to help pay for his own daughter's hachnasas kallah. Currently suffering from advanced prostate cancer. Last I heard he needed rachamei shamayim.Barzilai/Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-79175688359502645132013-06-09T16:46:28.678-05:002013-06-09T16:46:28.678-05:00Reb Yitzchok Elchonon, in the first ma'amar of...Reb Yitzchok Elchonon, in the first ma'amar of Kovetz Ma'amarim, uses the same principle to explain Reb Chaims' "nebach an apikores" aphorism.great Unknownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15728976902210831137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-31540641300427005252013-06-09T16:10:39.611-05:002013-06-09T16:10:39.611-05:00I heard this vort of R' Shach said over by R&#...I heard this vort of R' Shach said over by R' Tuvia Lieff once. The way he reported it is that R' Shach was respondsing to a bachur who asked for advice on how to work on himself during Elul. R' Shach answered that if the bachur looks within himself, he will know what to do -- it's not something R' Shach can dictate to him. (http://divreichaim.blogspot.com/2010/08/shoftim-personal-justice.html).Chaim B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-5846321242827113872013-06-09T12:43:51.948-05:002013-06-09T12:43:51.948-05:00Because the GR"A is quoted as saying the same...Because the GR"A is quoted as saying the same thing.great Unknownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15728976902210831137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-24670149042634061052013-06-09T12:41:30.761-05:002013-06-09T12:41:30.761-05:00I don't know what happened in the time of Kora...I don't know what happened in the time of Korach. I just want to understand what Rav Shach was talking about. I haven't seen it inside, but I have mamosh no idea what he means. I understand that we pasken that someone that is somech on Sanhedrin in Lishkas Hagazis and they later said they were wrong, that you don't have a petur oneis. Nobody made you follow their psak. But culpability? Beyond my comprehension. Why would he even say that?Barzilai/Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-87273047002337532172013-06-09T07:57:52.876-05:002013-06-09T07:57:52.876-05:00Or, perhaps worse, what about disputes about what ...Or, perhaps worse, what about disputes about what a particular gadol said?great Unknownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15728976902210831137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-89718827745028248012013-06-09T03:41:43.070-05:002013-06-09T03:41:43.070-05:00Needless to say, I identify with your main point. ...Needless to say, I identify with your main point. But I think the examples are not convincing.<br><br>Regarding על מה אבדה הארץ: many ask the obvious question, that many many psukim in Navi describe explicitly the many Chataim (with chataf), and they were not as obscure and refined as שלא ברכו בתורה.<br><br>There are few famous answers (e.g. that the question was to the Shoresh of their fall, or that the question was what is the reason for Galus, why they were not punished in EY). Whatever it is, not knowing the answer to these questions is in no way an excuse for their actual aveiros, which were severe and known to all.<br><br>As for Korach, Rambam (YH 8) goes out of his way to explain the problem there was nothing but questioning Moshe's authenticity as delivering Dvar Hashem. So the people should not have had to decide between (for example) philosophical arguments as to preferring the spirituality of the individual on communal spirituality, or whatever we explain the discussion there to be. The only had to know one thing - Moshe Rabbenu delivers us Dvar Hashem, so no one can overrule him. How would they know it? They heard it themselves, as the Rambam put it: "הקול מדבר אליו ואנו שומעים: משה משה לך אמור להם כך וכך"<br><br>What about disputes among Gedolim for none of which we have such an endorsement, that's the question.Elihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.com