tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post3474343455923891911..comments2024-03-19T23:03:01.685-05:00Comments on Beis Vaad L'Chachamim: Parshas Korach: Respect for Gedolei YisraelEliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-55366736502690176782012-07-14T13:53:59.911-05:002012-07-14T13:53:59.911-05:00Is your claim based on (an interpretation of) Chaz...Is your claim based on (an interpretation of) Chazal/other sources, or is it due to observation? If the former - what's the source? Chazal say we can learn middos tovos from animals, are these animals Yidden too?<br><br>If the latter, I think one can safely say there are many Chinese and Indians, unaffected by Jewish culture or its descendants, with middos tovos. Rivka was chosen to be our mother based on her middos, before she was influenced by Torah, etc etc. Obviously, I do not deny the huge influence of Torah values (brought by Christianity to most of the civilized world). However, another important factor is prosperity and wealth. It's easier to be generous when you don't fight for bread. Jewish mothers too have abandoned their children at times, etc etc. I would like to believe that, on average, Jewish people, guided by Torah morality and maybe even those who were not, were doing better than goyim in the same situation. This is far far from the extreme hyperbole discussed here.Elihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-70857972500948441082012-07-11T15:03:10.633-05:002012-07-11T15:03:10.633-05:00Regarding Eli's comment, first, here's the...Regarding Eli's comment, first, here's the article he linked:<br><br>PA Accuses Rabbis Yosef and Steinman of Incitement<br><br>The Haaretz newspaper reported on Sunday that, for the past two months, the Palestinian Authority has been circulating reports among its ambassadors and foreign diplomats which outline what is termed “Israeli incitement against the Palestinian population.” Among those accused of incitement are Shas’ spiritual leader Rabbi Ovadia Yosef and Rabbi Aharon Leib Steinman, a leader of the Lithuanian branch of hareidi Judaism.<br><br>The PA’s report quotes Rabbi Ovadia Yosef as saying that “the Torah prohibits desecration of the Sabbath for a gentile, and it is prohibited to treat a gentile who comes to the hospital during the Sabbath.” It also includes a quote attributed to Rabbi Steinman, who said that gentiles are “murderers, thieves, villains and are brainless.”<br><br>The quotes are the PA’s response to recent accusations by Israel that PA’s mufti was inciting by quoting a passage from the Koran which instructs to kill Jews, and are presumably based on reports recently published in the Israeli media.<br><br>Second, I still say that whatever middos tovos we find among the nations stems from and is commensurate with the degree they were influenced by the Torah. In China, allowing an injured infant to remain in the street is not unusual, which has been remarked on in their own newspapers. In India, giving alms to the poor is seen as interference with Karma. And let's not even talk about the Germans and Hitlers complaint, his Kampf, against Torah morality. Other than the influence of the Torah, the inevitable course ends in the worst atrocities. Goyim are rotzchim- to the extent that they are goyim. To the extent that they are Yidden, to the extent that they borrowed from or were influenced by the Torah, to that extent they can be malachim.Barzilaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-1992128626722607232012-07-03T06:02:48.304-05:002012-07-03T06:02:48.304-05:00Shalom,I surely agree to your statement "that...Shalom,<br><br>I surely agree to your statement "that a man like that is entitled to a high level of deference. If you find his statement objectionable, then you have an obligation to think very hard about what he meant and why he said it". One has to give credit where credit is due, but sometime your conclusion, after thinking, could be that the statement is, after all, objectionable. <br><br>Sorry, but your example is not convincing. There are moral disputes, including ones regarding issues of life and death, even within the Torah and Halacha world. Rav X permits abortions/organ-donations/etc in some situations, while Rav Y thinks they are considered murder. Should Rav Steinman include Rav X in his statement too? Of course, you may argue that *our* (define you circle of reference here: all Halacha observing jews? people who follow your favorite posek? only you?) moral standards are the correct ones, and those of others are wrong. They say the same of course. But regardless, this is not equivalent to what Rav S. said. My own experience with גויים, limited though, is that those who were raised in the civilized world are, by and large, not רוצחים, גנבים אנשים בלי שכל, certainly not all of them. Certainly, the גויים I met in my life, are very different from the peasants in Brisk of early 20th century. But I'd expect a leader whose words may literally affect the whole world (see below) not to base himself on limited anecdotal evidence.<br><br>More importantly, not only I humbly think his words are wrong empirically, it was also wrong to say it even if one believe them to be true. See http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/243805#.T_LQarVo2E8 . And this comes from a leader that uses the התגרות באומות card frequently. I guess Rav S. wasn't aware of the impact of what he says in a closed room, but that by itself, again, raises questions on how well does he know what is going on outside of his close circle.<br><br>Finally, to follow up on GU's point, living in a society in which a slight disagreement disentitles one of respect, it's no wonder that the attitude towards people of completely different cultures would be the way it is. This is another price one pays for being so isolated.<br><br>העולם טועים בשנים: טועים לחשוב שאדם גדול אינו טועה, וטועים לחשוב כי מי שטעה אינו אדם גדול.Elihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-39599280986703251062012-06-24T08:55:38.818-05:002012-06-24T08:55:38.818-05:00I am behind on my blog reading and just saw your p...I am behind on my blog reading and just saw your post. Y'yasher kochacha.chaim b.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-63142370775512788512012-06-20T11:21:36.366-05:002012-06-20T11:21:36.366-05:00My opinion is that a man like that is entitled to ...My opinion is that a man like that is entitled to a high level of deference. If you find his statement objectionable, then you have an obligation to think very hard about what he meant and why he said it. In this case what he meant was that human philosophy, without being influenced by divine revelation, inevitably deteriorates to the justification and gleeful practice of all of the horrors and abominations conceivable by the human heart. This is not speculative; it is empirical.Barzilaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-44657651159421380402012-06-20T08:41:50.842-05:002012-06-20T08:41:50.842-05:00I can't follow all the Hebrew, but I can under...I can't follow all the Hebrew, but I can understand anyone who would disrespect a "Rabbi" who calls all the world's population murderers and lacking of intellect.Avihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15987913203857736139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-70313952017505903022012-06-19T13:08:47.447-05:002012-06-19T13:08:47.447-05:00Just speculation:Consider than in many [some, most...Just speculation:<br><br>Consider than in many [some, most, all?] yeshivot, there exists a hierarchy of respect. Certain other yeshivos are highly respected, certain Rosh Yeshivos are considered gedolim, certain shitot and hashkafot are considered definitive. And the opposite is true of other yeshivos, Rosh Yeshivos, and shitot and hashkafot. And there is a continuum between the two extremes.<br><br>[I prefer not to mention blatant examples I experienced in my ephemeral experience in the yeshiva world such as Rav Kook, REITS, Lubavitch, the insulting seating arrangements at certain Agudah events for certain gedolim who were not part of the power bloc, etc., etc., ad nauseum. So forget I said anything]<br><br>And almost universally, a gadol who happens to be a Rov and not a Rosh Yeshiva is never considered significant. <br><br>Is it any wonder than this attitude carries on to later life?great unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-26223273560038750412012-06-19T05:59:46.454-05:002012-06-19T05:59:46.454-05:00I wasn't surprised at that particular reaction...I wasn't surprised at that particular reaction. I was very upset about the other blogger, a big talmid chacham and mechaber sefarim, who copied and posted it. And I was upset that nobody had the seichel to protest and say that the best defense for the extremely dangerous act of being mevazeh talmid chacham is that the critic was momentarily insane, an irresponsible imbecile.Barzilaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-91046901870806373582012-06-18T18:05:35.864-05:002012-06-18T18:05:35.864-05:00I suspect that the author of the "reaction&qu...I suspect that the author of the "reaction" is closer in moral philosophy to Guibilini and Minerva than to the Catholic theologian; but would respect all three of them far more than Rav Steinman.great unknownnoreply@blogger.com