tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post4202989438507105302..comments2024-03-19T23:03:01.685-05:00Comments on Beis Vaad L'Chachamim: Slichos and the Thirteen Middos of HashemEliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-70938836748306734562013-09-03T15:37:51.302-05:002013-09-03T15:37:51.302-05:00And going back to my choice of terms...Doesn't...And going back to my choice of terms...<br><br>Doesn't "[n]ot that it doesn't exist, but that it's at least extraneous and perhaps even detrimental" describe how Chazal view magic?<br><br>And so, that's the word I chose!Micha Bergerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-91436190972556398812013-09-03T15:25:23.074-05:002013-09-03T15:25:23.074-05:00I like that approach. Not that it doesn't exi...I like that approach. Not that it doesn't exist, but that it's at least extraneous and perhaps even detrimental to the proper focus of our efforts and vision. <br><br>I heard from Reb Moshe many times that application of Tamim Tihyeh.Barzilai/Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-8575754761779761072013-09-03T15:14:01.074-05:002013-09-03T15:14:01.074-05:00Yes, my quote about "tamim tihyeh" is ab...Yes, my quote about "tamim tihyeh" is about not invoking non-avodah metaphysical causality, not that it doesn't exist. But then, so was my original comment. I didn't say magic is fictitious, I said that it wouldn't be the way I would view the beris behind the 13 Middos.Micha Bergerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-74372385966873950932013-09-03T15:08:44.869-05:002013-09-03T15:08:44.869-05:00Full house beats three of a kind. My mother grew ...Full house beats three of a kind. <br><br>My mother grew up in Kelm, my father (originally from Varzhan) in Slabodka under Rav Yechezkel Berstein. My mother's brothers learned in Telz, one was Rav Gifter's chavrusa, and they were dear friends of the Ponovezher Rov. I learned in Telz, and then under Rav Rudderman (Slabodka)/Rav Dovid Kronglass (the Mir)/Rav Weinberg (Chaim Berlin) in NIRC. Rav Kreiswirth and Rav Dovid Lifshitz were good friends of the family. From my point of view, it is not the pshat that they rejected such concepts. They just didn't use them as a crutch or to avoid the hard work of Tikkun Hamiddos and Ameilus and Amkus BaTorah.Barzilai/Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-42590237756071978162013-09-03T14:57:26.387-05:002013-09-03T14:57:26.387-05:00Actually, when I said Litta, I meant Litta. Three ...Actually, when I said Litta, I meant Litta. Three of my grandparents were Litvaks, and my greatgrandfather was a talmid and ben bayis of R' Meir Simchah haKohein miDvinsk.<br><br>I learned under a talmid of R' Shimon Shkop's -- Rav Dovid Lifshitz. My own derekh, more due to nostalgia and disappointment with current options than having been influenced at the time, is that kind of Telzherish-Mussarish end of Lithuanian thought.<br><br>So I meant "Litvak" in the sense of those who maximize the concept of "tamim tihyeh im Hashem E-lokekha".Micha Bergerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-72079884223649747232013-09-03T14:50:07.347-05:002013-09-03T14:50:07.347-05:00I understand that you mean Littah as a rubric for ...I understand that you mean Littah as a rubric for rationalism, but Littah was not as monolithic as some think. That would be more the Hirschean school. <br><br>My son's yeshiva, Yeshivas Kodshim, under Rav Tzvi Kaplan, is doing slichos tomorrow morning at four fifteen. Why? Besides the many Yamim Nora'im austerities in that Yeshiva, it's also because the Brisker Rov was makpid to say the Thirteen Middos twice before Alos Hashachar on Erev Rosh Hashanna. And I'm not talking about Reb Yishmael's Thirteen Middos she'ha'torah nidreshes bahem.Barzilai/Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-86293649999011102402013-09-03T13:43:33.102-05:002013-09-03T13:43:33.102-05:00Personally, I consider magic to include any appeal...Personally, I consider magic to include any appeal to metaphysical causality that can't be explained in terms of either reward and punishment or of changing outcome by changing reality and thus the path from the real to HQBH's Plan.<br><br>But then, I'm an intellectual child (grandchild?) of Litta.Micha Bergerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-74712701253362838512013-09-03T13:34:51.293-05:002013-09-03T13:34:51.293-05:00Avraham, I said that the Bris is that we don't...Avraham, I said that the Bris is that we don't go back empty handed, not that you get whatever you want.<br><br>I'm not so excited about the use of the term magic in this discussion. The recitation of the Middos is an act we are supposed to do, words we are supposed to say. They only have an effect if our lives don't contradict the middos. But just being a holech bidrachav isn't enough. You have to do "kaseder hazeh," with the tallis, with these words. Call it magic if you want. I don't call that magic, I call it tefilla with a bris kerusa.Barzilai/Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-2982688535963455942013-08-31T20:42:42.996-05:002013-08-31T20:42:42.996-05:00Why do we assume that enan chozros reikam means yo...Why do we assume that enan chozros reikam means you get everything you requested for? If that was the meaning, surely Rashi could say it a bit clearer. Seems like it simply means that it will certainly have some effect.<br><br>I think that given the empirical evidence of all the promises of Chazal and even the Torah itself for example in the paragraph of Shema in vehaya im shamoa or in bentching velo raiti tzadik neezav - we tend to take these statements as some kind of magical formula which we don't understand or can't see in this world in any event.Avrahamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-40256543400645493992013-08-29T15:40:10.468-05:002013-08-29T15:40:10.468-05:00As I understand Micha's distinction between th...As I understand Micha's distinction between the "Test me by giving Maaser"/never return empty handed group and the Neiros is a segula for children talmidei chachamim group; Micha said that the latter, namely the Gemara in Shabbos 23b- Ragil b'neir (Rashi- Shabbos and Chanuka) will have sons talmidei chachamim; zahir in tzitzis, nice clothes; zahir in mezuza, nice house, only means that you create an environment that is conducive for Bracha, a beis kibbul. Whereas the former seems like a general guarantee.<br><br>I do think there's a difference. I think the latter is like those mitzvos in the Torah that "matan scharan ksuva b'tzidan." As Acheir saw in the end of chulin, there's no guarantee there either. The ones I brought are "test me!" and "Bris krusa."Barzilai/Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-66410941332217310022013-08-29T08:27:50.258-05:002013-08-29T08:27:50.258-05:00R JB Soloveitchik was known for admitting he was w...R JB Soloveitchik was known for admitting he was wrong and ending the shiur early, coming in the next day, and reteaching the sugya differently. I don't know if I just heard the same story dozens of times, or if it happened more than once over the decades. In any case, the intellectual honesty that is (supposed to be) central to the academic mindset, is a major theme in RJBS's expectations of his talmidim.<br><br>As for the centrality of teshuvah BALC in Kelm... what else would you expect from the mussar movement?<br><br>But to validate the notion: I too can forgive many offenses against myself when committed by someone who I know cares for my children.Micha Bergerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-20142237902648189832013-08-29T08:22:09.185-05:002013-08-29T08:22:09.185-05:00RCB quotes: "How many things do we find that ...RCB quotes: "How many things do we find that Chazal promise benefit?"<br><br>And then he asks: "What do you mean? There are many other gemaras that say things like 'Do X and you will having banim talmidei chachamim' (just to take one example)."<br><br>But the language isn't that it's guaranteed or promised. It's more a statement of causality -- providing an environment with X in is conducive to raising talmidei chakhamim.<br><br>And I'm asserting that until the acharonic period, people didn't think in those terms. Recall that the tradition that would become published by the Zohar didn't have a chance to influence too many people yet; we're reading rishonim after influences few if any of them ever experienced.<br><br>Qemei'os and other such formula rarely -- if ever -- appear in the Y-mi. And in the Bavli, it's not clear if Chazal took them seriously or as placebos, but in Sassanid culture it was part of Natural Philosophy (what later becomes science), not metaphysics. That's how they can talk about the power of wolf's teeth while banning lechishah -- one is science, even if not by our findings, the other is magic.<br><br>Itzumo shel yom isn't mechaper the person who ignores that it's Yom Kippur. Izumo shel yom of YK itself denands the person has to accept and be willing to be changed by. Again, not magic, but being changed by the Yom Kippur environment.Micha Bergerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-87826094087623373382013-08-29T08:07:15.515-05:002013-08-29T08:07:15.515-05:00Chaim- I remember Rabbi Weinberg in NIRC was sayin...Chaim- I remember Rabbi Weinberg in NIRC was saying a shiur, and a bochur asked him a kashe, and he thought very seriously, and said, "You're right" and closed his Gemara and walked away from the amud.<br><br>I'm not quite ready to do that, but I'm thinking about it.<br><br>Nonetheless, in Kelm, the signs they put up during Elul all were in regard to bein adam l'chaveiro.Barzilai/Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-25249977853878840992013-08-29T08:04:24.434-05:002013-08-29T08:04:24.434-05:00Micha. You are addressing an issue I was trying t...Micha. You are addressing an issue I was trying to avoid. As you indicate, many people read Rashi to mean a mere recitation, or at least, a recitation with Kavana. You don't accept that, and you learn Rashi to mean what the other Rishonim say. I'm not convinced that Rashi holds like that. First, Rashi says that it only works on Ta'aneisim. In fact, the Drushei HaTzlach says that Rashi means specifically and exclusively on Yom Kippur, because it is the only real Taanis, and because Rashi holds that the original event of Hashem saying the Middos took place on Yom Kippur. (Some, taking things a little too far, ask, if it was Yom Kippur, why was the Ribono shel Olam wearing Tefillin?) If it is a din in Yom Kippur, and we pasken that Itzumo shel Yom is mechapeir, which is magical thinking, then it's not unreasonable to say the same about the Middos.Barzilai/Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-191782310887627202013-08-29T07:34:40.019-05:002013-08-29T07:34:40.019-05:00>>>How many things do we find that Chazal...>>>How many things do we find that Chazal promise benefit?<br><br>What do you mean? There are many other gemaras that say things like "Do X and you will having banim talmidei chachamim" (just to take one example). <br><br>The difference I think is that in most of those places Chazal spell out that it refers to someone who is "zahir" or "ragil" in a particular mitzvah. Here, the plain reading does seem to imply that the 13 midos are a magical formula that turns back evil. (Don't we have such things too? What about Aharon using ketores to fight the malacha ha'maves?) Kah mashma lan that this is no different than those other cases and more than just lip service is required.Chaim B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-20131987909385531342013-08-28T20:38:10.283-05:002013-08-28T20:38:10.283-05:00I think the problem is that people have come to ex...I think the problem is that people have come to expect rishonim to share today's penchant for magical thinking. In a more classical philosophy, when you read Rashi saying "שאם יזכירום ישראל בתפלת" we don't mean merely saying them, but internalizing them while davening. IOW, someone who commits during the prayers of the fast day to emulate Hashem's Mercy will not be left empty-handed.<br><br>Similarly, it's magical thinking that "שאינן חוזרות ריקם" means that the person gets what they desire, as though their desires outrank Hashem's knowledge of what's best for us.<br><br>This simply isn't the way rishonim thought about avodas Hashem.Micha Bergerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.com