tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post5698466070933300522..comments2024-03-19T23:03:01.685-05:00Comments on Beis Vaad L'Chachamim: Beshalach, Parshas Ha Man and SegulosEliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-15519368357396220452012-02-03T14:36:39.709-06:002012-02-03T14:36:39.709-06:00What gu is referring to can be seen at http://www....What gu is referring to can be seen at http://www.nechama.org.il/pages/969.html<br>or, in situ, at <br>http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=40007&st=&pgnum=82<br>He says that the slumbering souls who never attempt to improve themselves by following Hashem's will definitely have no hashgacha pratis.<br>Not that it matters, but you know that the Sforno was a doctor, and the Rambam was a doctor, and, there seems to be some dangerous hashkafic traps that might ensnare people in that profession, not that I'm chalilah saying that they were influenced, because only that Gaon could say things like that.Eliezernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-70204071795393179332012-02-03T13:59:27.467-06:002012-02-03T13:59:27.467-06:00Add to the list of "currently on the apiskors...Add to the list of "currently on the apiskorsus watch list" the Sforno, vayikra 13:47<br><br>To paraphrase an adam gadol, if that's what they give klep for in Shamayim, then sign me up.<br><br>Unfortunately, again paraphrasing a joke told about Novarodock Mussar, they'll say about me "aych mir an apikores"great unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-17876706495122451532012-02-03T11:32:42.401-06:002012-02-03T11:32:42.401-06:00Eliezer:The commentators are commenting on why Par...Eliezer:<br><br>The commentators are commenting on why Parshas HaMon -- along with several other parshiyos -- are included in the siddur. <br><br>The question as to whether the mere recitation has value (in terms of seeing to it that food will never be lacking) is explicitly addressed by Rabbi Zev Wolf of Zotamir in his Ohr HaMeier.<br><br>Rabbi Zev Wolf was, of course, a Chassidishe Rebbe contemporary of R' Menachem Mendel, not some medieval rationalist.Dovid Shlomonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-66513845326756709872012-02-02T16:01:33.140-06:002012-02-02T16:01:33.140-06:00See R Friedlander's Sifsei Chayim, Emunoh u-Bi...See R Friedlander's Sifsei Chayim, Emunoh u-Bitochon, vol. 1 p. 96 where he brings the Rambam’s pshat in hashgocho protis that seems to accept the prevalence of mikreh for most people, and asks many kashes from Chazal and comes out with a different m’halach. <br><br>See also the Ramban in Iyov 36:7 that says:<br>To the extent that this individual comes close to God by clinging to him, he will be guarded especially well, while one who is far from God in his thought and deeds, even if he does not deserve death because of his sin, will be forsaken and left to accidents...Those who are close to God are under absolute protection, while those who are far from him are subject to accidents and have no one to protect them from harm...Since most of the world belongs to this intermediate group, the Torah commanded that warriors be mobilized...<br> <br>See also the Ramban in parshas Vayera (d’h Kee Y’dativ) and the Seforno in the end of parshas Tazria who say clearly that hashgacha protis is limited to Tzaddikim.<br><br>See also R. Joseph B. Soloveitchik comments regarding the Rambam's approach to Hashgocho (Halakhic Man, p. 128):<br>The fundamental of providence is here transformed into a concrete commandment, an obligation incumbent upon man. Man is obliged to broaden the scope and strengthen the intensity of the individual providence that watches over him. Everything is dependent on him; it is all in his hands. When a person creates himself, ceases to be a mere species man, and becomes a man of God, then he has fulfilled that commandment which is implicit in the principle of providence.<br><br>See also Meshech Chochma( Shemos 13:9): "Divine Providence is manifest for each Jew according to his spiritual level as the Rambam explains in Moreh Nevuchim (3:18): Divine Providence is not equal for everyone but rather is proportional to their spiritual level. Consequently the Divine Providence for the prophets is extremely powerful each according to their level of prophecy. The Divine Providence for the pious and saintly is according to their level of perfection. In contrast the fools and the rebels lacking spirituality are in essence in the same category as animals... This concept that Divine Providence is proportional to spiritual level is one of foundations of Judaism.<br><br>See also R Shternbuch’s discussion of Teva in his sefer on Chumosh in Shmos 13:16. <br><br>Note, of course, that the Baal Shem Tov, claiming to a basis in Kabbala and the Ari Zal, says that hashgocho protis is absolute and universal, applying to bugs and atoms and leaves on trees. Recently, some Chasidim have been saying that anyone that doesn’t believe this is an apikores, since the rishonim didn’t have access to the torah taught to the Ari Zal and the Baal Shem Tov by Eliyohu Hanovi and Achiah Hashiloni. If holding like the Netziv, Reb Meir Simcha, the Ramban, the Malbim, and the Chinuch makes one an apikores, then we simply have to redefine apikorsus as being a good thing, and decide which kind of apikorsus is good and which is badEliezernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-47473580058981746552012-02-02T16:01:18.248-06:002012-02-02T16:01:18.248-06:00Malbim in Shir Hashirim 2:3: there are two circums...Malbim in Shir Hashirim 2:3: <br>there are two circumstances: if people rule their microcosms, their own bodies, according to seichel and bechira properly, then the macrocosm, the world, and nature, will be subordinated to the seichel ho’elyon, and there will be hanhogo nissiyis and nevua. But when teva rules over the microcosm, and people do not live by seichel and the yetzer tov to subordinate the natural impulses, then teva will become powerful in the world, and hashgocho will be cloaked under the veil of teva and mazal. <br><br>Most importantly, the Ramban says this explicitly in Breishis 18:19, that Hashem’s hashgocho is only on the general ‘klolim’ of the world, and on individuals only when their time to be remembered comes. It is only the chasidim that are zocheh to ‘tomid eini Hashem aleihem’. So why do we all say “Elokeinu?”<br>The answer is that there are many levels of hashgocho, even of hashgocho protis. <br><br>The Malbim in Eicha 3:24 brings the Zohar that says that the nations are under sorim, and when the sar is boteil the nation is boteil. But Yisroel is birshus Hagavo’ah, and just as He is chai vekayom, Yisroel is also never boteil. So, Klal Yisroel as a whole has a higher madreiga of hasgocho protis. Second of all, although there are different levels for different people, it is not an all-or-none situation. <br><br>In Shir Hashirim 2:9 the Malbim discusses the five aspects of Hashem’s relationship to the world. In that paragraph he says that “omeid achar kosleinu” means that Hashem is mashgiach “al hatzadik beyichud behashgocho protiyis. In this hashgocho protiyis for a tzadik there are three possible madreigos. One is where Hashem just protects him and nourishes him; The next is where Hashem gives him siyata dishmaya to understand the Torah; The third is where there is a closeness between them, and Hashem pours his spirit into him and gives him ruach hakodesh and nevua.<br><br>We see from here that it is true to say that all of Klal Yisroel has hashgocho protis. The only thing is that there are many different kinds of hashgocho protis. This is really evident from the different madreigos people have in bitachon, and the correspondingly different madreigos they have in hashgocho protis. So Yosef was punished for asking the sar hamashkim to remember him, even though for others this would not be an aveira, but rather hishtadlus. For Yosef, however, it was contrary to the madreiga of hashgocho protis he had reached. <br><br>So we can say that ein mazal leyisroel only applies to tzadikim, but still say that others have hasgocho protis, and also that Klal Yisroel has a special hashgocho. So we can all say Elokeinu in krias shma.Eliezernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-32277430879202952932012-02-02T12:06:02.250-06:002012-02-02T12:06:02.250-06:00I just want to note that the MB: "להורות שאין...I just want to note that the MB: "להורות שאין ריבוי ההשתדלות מועיל מאומה" seems to say that the outcome of השתדלות is independent on the amount of effort. A similar approach is found in Messilas Yeshorim #21, saying one should make איזה השתדלות as a גזרת מלך, but must believe there is no causal relation between his efforts and the result. Such approach might be attributed to in the famous Ramban שהגזרה אמת והחריצות שקר, and is common among current Mashgichim.<br><br>However, this seems to contradict Nidda 70b ירבה בסחורה. Also, I believe most Rishonim dealing with בטחון and השתדלות do not follow this approach, see e.g. Ramban (Dvarim 20:9) "ואין החפץ לפניו לשנות טבעו של עולם זולתי כאשר אין שם דרך בהצלה אחרת"Elihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-76765314115040159402012-02-02T08:45:25.920-06:002012-02-02T08:45:25.920-06:00Dovid Shlomo, you are going too far. While it'...Dovid Shlomo, you are going too far. While it's true that all the mekoros say that one should concentrate on the true source of parnassa, if it were just an exercise in hashkafa the saying of the parsha would be irrelevant. It would say "צריך אדם להתבונן ולידע ולהאמין שכל מזונותיו ופרנסתו א ורק מהקב"ה" and then he will have bracha in parnassa. It doesn't say that. I says to say the parsha. Your comment entirely disregards the element of the saying of the parsha. I think that's an overreaction to the false emphasis on the segula aspect.Eliezernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-58078431256553004672012-02-02T07:53:43.260-06:002012-02-02T07:53:43.260-06:00Nowhere, in any source that I know of, does it say...Nowhere, in any source that I know of, does it say that reading parshas hamon in and of itself has any value whatsoever.<br><br>What has value is to internalize what Parshas HaMon teaches you. <br><br>Same thing with "ain od."<br><br>Internalizing it is a segulah, saying it is not.Dovid Shlomonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-83835275504309806672012-02-01T19:16:54.125-06:002012-02-01T19:16:54.125-06:00But why know anything, when there's so much av...But why know anything, when there's so much available online. Here's an interesting compendium on a similar issue:<br>הרשב"א ז"ל בתשובה סימן תי"ג וכן ריב"ז בפרק חלק כתב גבי לוחש על המכה וזה לשונו: "אם יש לו קדחת מותר ללחוש עליו ולהתרפאות בדברי תורה וכו'". וכן כתב תשב"ץ כי ב"ויהי נועם" אין בו שום אות ז', לומר לך שכל האומרו ניצול מכל כלי זיין.Eliezernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-62179976582443630222012-02-01T19:16:10.727-06:002012-02-01T19:16:10.727-06:00Hardly a straw man; more like a Golem. The concep...Hardly a straw man; more like a Golem. The concept of segula today is [red string bracelet, the "hand against the evil eye", saying sefer tehillim a hundred times, etc., ad nauseum] a mechanical action to generate a quid pro quo. Put a quarter into the machine, a candy bar comes out.<br><br>In the extreme, this is the same stuff as being sold by the bergian kabbala center to Rebbetzins Esther and Demi.<br><br>There are people who read zohar, with absolutely no understanding of what they are saying. For some reason they believe that some magic power inheres in this. Personally, I think that if they would pick up a simple sefer on chumash and learn it, they would get infinitely more schar.<br><br>I have no problem with sifrei chassidus; indeed I learn some. In fact, if Litvaks didn't learn them, nobody would understand what the authors were really saying.<br><br> Ask most people how they view segulos; I suspect you will find my opinion of segula-embracers much closer to the truth than that they have the understanding of a Reb Levi Yitzchok or the Apter Rebbe.<br><br>There are people with pictures of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe in their wallets, or one of the dollar bills he distributed [I was given one and immediately spent it]. How does this bring them closer to Hashem.<br><br>The only positive thing I know about segulos for the average person is a story with my daughter. She was visiting me Israel in wanted a red bendel. When she found out how much they cost, she went to a yarn store, bought a hundred yards of the appropriate thread for almost nothing, then went down to kever Rochel. She asked the guard of permission, then wrapped it around the ohel as is the custom for "activating" the bendels. When she went back to America, she cut the yarn up and sold it to her classmates. She made a decent profit on the deal - but she never wore one herself. Now that's a segula for parnasa.<br><br>Just for my personal information: do Gerrers go in for segulas?<br><br>As far as the segula of the Nefesh HaChaim, it means to be aware of "ayn od milvado" and act accordingly. The are those, such as the Brisker Rov, who survived the war using this segula. But if a person has this in mind, yet has the slightest doubt as to its veracity - don't bet on its working.<br>In other words, this "segula" is by definition a commitment to an amazingly high level of emunah.<br><br>Yet if it were publicized among the hamon am, people would start mumbling it before buying a lottery ticket or taking the bar exam, thinking it is some kind of magic charm.<br><br>I worked in kiruv for many years, both in the frun and non-frum environment. There were always those who preferred the crutch of segulos and brachos from "tzadikkim" to actually working on themselves the hard way.<br><br>Reb Ovadya Yosef, Shlita, was once asked a segula for zikaron. "A segula for zikaron," he replied, "that's easy. Review everything you learn a hundren and one times."<br><br>Which is why, when I hear of a segula such as this, I embrace it in the sense of trying to extract whatever sense and devaikus I can find in it. And then I reject it practically because I prefer not to seduced into the path of the segula-worshipers. <br><br>BTW, I happened to be at the parashat Hamon in my being ma'avir sidrah on Tuesday, an I happened to say it. So I also have no personal axe to grind. Although I'm considering ordering a nice battle-ax to add to my collection.great unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-89072753965780590322012-02-01T19:11:13.967-06:002012-02-01T19:11:13.967-06:00Chaim, I've incorporated what you said into th...Chaim, I've incorporated what you said into the post. Should have done it before, because you're right, it is not at all implicit in what I was saying, perhaps contrary. Again, if you mean "just saying it," I don't think Reb Chaim meant that would work by ain od either. I think Reb Chaim meant what I'm saying. And it's true, the word "segula" has been cheapened to mean a sort of Kamei'ah. I have nothing against Kamei'ahs, I learned Maseches Shabbos, but I find it uncomfortable to use pesukim like a kamei'ah, as I wrote on your site.Eliezernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-40106381581851159382012-02-01T18:52:46.948-06:002012-02-01T18:52:46.948-06:00Cross posting this comment from my own blog here:&...Cross posting this comment from my own blog here:<br><br>>>>It cheapens it and replaces a kesher with the Ribbono Shel Olam with a mechanical exercise.<br><br>I reject the dichotomy. <br>When R' Chaim Volozhiner (a source even a Litvak can respect!) writes that he has a "segulah nifla'ah" (Nefesh haChaim 3:12) to ward away evil -- to always have in mind "ain od milvado" -- do you think me means to replace a kesher with Hashem with some "mechanical exercise," or magical incantation because he uses the dreaded word "segulah," or is the segualah gufa the means to deepen and strengthen that very kesher? <br><br>If you understand R' Chaim Volozhiner's segulah as the latter, why insist on understanding the Riminover's any differently?Chaim B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-22904925119231169652012-02-01T18:13:40.877-06:002012-02-01T18:13:40.877-06:00>>>replaces a kesher with the Ribbono She...>>>replaces a kesher with the Ribbono Shel Olam with a mechanical exercise<br><br>I think GU is setting up a straw man (and I see you tried to avoid it by saying the approaches are not mutually exclusive). Segulos reinforce that kesher with Hashem; they are not a magical substitute for it. If anything, davka sifrei chassidus stress again and again the importance of not just going through the motions, but of having deep kavanah in every act of avodas Hashem. If certain ideas have become abused or misconstrued due to their popularization, that is not a fault inherent in the ideas themselves.<br><br>If I can draw an analogy to different topic: If you mumble through "l'shem yichud..." in 10 seconds or less before doing a mitzvah and have no idea what it means, then the Noda b'Yehdah's criticisms (siman 93) and advice to stop saying are right on target. If you are someone like the Siduro Shel Shabbos and say "l'shem yichud..." with all the appropriate kavanos, then his teshuvah in defense of the minhag makes a lot of sense. It all depends on what you make of it. (No, I don't say l'shem yichud, so I have no personal ax to grind in the matter.)Chaim B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.com