tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post6756404672339749087..comments2024-03-19T23:03:01.685-05:00Comments on Beis Vaad L'Chachamim: Matos, Bamidbar 31:4. Shevet Levi's Military Service ExemptionEliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-50359464286758748372013-03-12T13:18:27.442-05:002013-03-12T13:18:27.442-05:00That Netziv should be put up in Neon lights, not h...That Netziv should be put up in Neon lights, not hidden in a comment.<br><br>I'm going to have to figure out what to do with it. I can't wait until Matos.Barzilai/Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-64385417346092513832013-03-12T11:32:51.153-05:002013-03-12T11:32:51.153-05:00I found today the amazing Netziv (Bereshit 49:14-1...I found today the amazing Netziv (Bereshit 49:14-15) http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14024&st=&pgnum=385Elihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-59504935804731746822012-07-23T02:31:33.500-05:002012-07-23T02:31:33.500-05:001. The pasuk in DH talks about ~8300 Leviim and Ko...1. The pasuk in DH talks about ~8300 Leviim and Kohanim (compared to 6800 from Yehuda, for example). Hard to say these were the Mashgichim in the kitchen. Also, I can't accept the Shevet lost its identity in the times of David Hamelech. <br><br>Benayahu, one of David chief commanders, was a Kohen and head of Sanhedrin (see Radak Shmuel 2:23:20 -- ואעפ"י שהיה בניהו כהן ואסור להטמא למתים, להלחם באויבי ה' הוא מצוה, כשצוה הקב"ה להלחם בשבעה גוים ובשאר האומות המצירות לישראל לא חלק בין כהנים לישראל. <br><br>As the rule is nowhere to find (see Radvaz there), there is no need to call all these exceptions.<br><br>3. True, but the way they learn leaves the Rambam with no source, and with a number of psukim and Sugyos against it. If you look for Names, see the Mizrahi on Rashi Mattos who says basically the same, that the Ptor of Levi is related to not getting a part in EY. Same and more explicit in Maharam Yaffe, who connects it with the Rambam in discussion. Another option to explain the Rambam is Rav Kook saying "ונראה שאע"פ שאין שבט לוי עושה מלחמה היינו לעשות מלחמה פרטית, כמו שאפשר שיזדמן ששבט אחד עושה מלחמה בשביל ההתנחלות שלו שימצא בזה. אבל כשכל ישראל יוצאין למלחמה, מחוייבים גם הם לצאת".<br><br>4. While I agree it's possible leadership diminishes one's focus on Torah , I am a bit surprised that you base the ptor to all Haredi youngsters on the assumption that they are more focused than Yehoshua, David, Bnayahu etc etc. These poor leaders all lost their focus (see e.g. Brachos 18b), but our generation's Yeshiva guys are focused, B"H. You then wonder (in the original post) how anyone could think otherwise? <br><br>5. True, but as some use the sugya in BB to explain the פטור based on רבנן לא צריכי נטירותא, it is relevant. <br><br>Anyway, see also Keren Orah ד"ה והרמב"ם: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14352&st=&pgnum=186<br><br>To this one should add the numerous Midrashim showing us that the Jewish army was composed of the greatest Talmidey Hachamim of their generation. <br><br>---<br><br>I'll just make my main two points again: (A) Regardless of the pshat in Rambam about Levi, it is hard to accept his comparison to Sevet Levi in #13 means to apply to the three dinim mentioned in #12: לא נוחלין, לא עורכים מלחמה, ולא זוכין בכח גופן אם TH. No one ever claimed that TH לא נוחלים. Regarding לא זוכין לעצמן - I am not sure what it means, maybe Matnos Kehuna. Are these applicable to TH too? I thus claim Halacha #13 stands alone, and is a Mussar ending to Zra'im. (B) The description in #13 does not apply to most Yeshiva Bochrim of our generations. As someone put it - whoever negotiates the terms of his Shiduch cannot claim to be included in ופרק מעל צוארו את עול החשבונות הרבים אשר חשבו בני האדם<br><br>[[Kollel support does not belong to this discussion, but apropos your comment to Ariel, in Israel about 1/3 to 1/2 of the Kollel stipends come from government money, i.e. taxes. Same goes for my own salary though]]Elihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-4009590825354030632012-07-22T21:36:08.004-05:002012-07-22T21:36:08.004-05:00Ariel:We are familiar with the Mishna in Sotah 44b...Ariel:<br>We are familiar with the Mishna in Sotah 44b. I believe the point of the Mishna is that although in some wars we limit participation to those that are without sin, the holy and the pure, but by מלחמות מצוה הכל יוצאין אפילו חתן מחדרו וכלה מחופתה. If so, it is not relevant to the exemption of Shevet Levi, however we define them. In any case, if you looked at the sources I cited, you would see that in interpreting the Mordechai et al, the Mishna is Sotah is not seen as a contradiction to the exemption of Levi.<br><br>As for the "public dole," you know that nobody makes anyone pay for the people in Kollel. Some of us see it as a privilege to support people in Kollel. I, for example, currently support all five of my children, to a greater or lesser degree, and they work harder than I ever did in my life, and I feel honored, even thrilled, that they are learning Torah. I don't need the Rambam to tell me how to spend my money. I agree that the state has no such obligation, but I also know that politicians in Israel buy votes by throwing money at yeshivos. Aren't democracies wonderful?<br><br>As for the Rambam regarding the exemption of Shevet Levi, that you can't disagree with. If you could, you would have to deal with all the achronim I cited. Maybe someone says like you. Who knows? Maybe the achronim that didn't write sefarim agree with you on the topic.<br><br>Whether the deferment of "Shevet Levi" applies to people who do the work of Shevet Levi, again, that is debatable. <br><br>And do me a favor, if you're going to write serious things, don't use an absurd name like Shmendrik. At least שלומיאל was the nasi of Shevet Shimon.Eliezernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-49553624197527315732012-07-22T21:21:47.324-05:002012-07-22T21:21:47.324-05:00Eli: 1. And Kohanim carried the Aron. Exceptions ...Eli: <br>1. And Kohanim carried the Aron. Exceptions don't mean the rule doesn't exist. I also wonder how long the Shevet as a whole retained its tafkid of exclusive focus on spiritual leadership, and what the consequences are when all that remains is their shevet ID.<br><br>3. You know as well as I do that that is not how the Rogotchover and Rav Tikutzinsky learned. <br><br>4. I suppose that leadership positions, such as being the Kohen that makes the announcements, or Mordechai Hatzadik, or being King, or being the leader of the army, requires abandonment of exclusive focus on Torah.<br><br>5. Interesting Chasam Sofer. Where do you find this stuff? He's referring, though, to taxes, not physical conscription.<br><br>Having said all of that, I agree that times change, and, as Dr. Stone said, there is more than the halacha involved here. I don't know if numbers are relevant; assuming that I'm right, that a person that dedicates his entire time to limud hatorah is exempt, does it matter how many people populate that category? Is the exemption a luxury that must be limited to the few, or a metaphysical truth that applies no matter how many it applies to? I don't know. I also know that if a man came and threatened a yeshiva bochur with a gun, he would not rely on the Mordchai and say that he's pattur from self defense and open a gemara. I wish the hadracha from the Yeshivishe gedolim were more straightforward and not tainted with disdain for the medinah.Eliezernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-69957762267226761662012-07-22T16:25:28.829-05:002012-07-22T16:25:28.829-05:00The basic premise of this whole article, which rep...The basic premise of this whole article, which represents the party line in the yeshiva world, is deeply flawed.<br><br>First, in regard to a war that is being waged to defend Jewish lives against those who are trying to kill us, which is the mission of the IDF, it is clearly a Milchemet Mitzva and not a Milchemet Reshus. Here is what the Rambam (Melachim7:4) has to say about that, quoting the Mishna and Gemara in Sotah<br><br>במלחמת מצוה הכל יוצאין ואפילו חתן מחדרו וכלה מחופתה<br><br>Got that? Even women should serve...kal vachomer all men.<br><br>The Shevet Levi "exemption" to the extent that it exists at all, is only for milchemet reshus, which is irrelevant to the IDF, as above.<br><br>Secondly, the Shevet Levi Rambam, which is always trotted out to legitimaize kollels and learning full time, is so clearly not what the Rambam holds in regard to whether it is appropriate for a large group of people to sit on the public dole and learn , that it is laughable, if it was not so sad. <br><br>Here are some quotes from Hilchot Talmud Torah, chapter 2:<br><br><br>י. כל המשים על לבו שיעסוק בתורה ולא יעשה מלאכה ויתפרנס מן הצדקה הרי זה חלל את השם ובזה את התורה וכבה מאור הדת וגרם רעה לעצמו ונטל חייו מן העולם הבא לפי שאסור ליהנות מדברי תורה בעולם הזה אמרו חכמים כל הנהנה מדברי תורה נטל חייו מן העולם ועוד צוו ואמרו אל תעשם עטרה להתגדל בהן ולא קרדום לחפור בהן ועוד צוו ואמרו אהוב את המלאכה ושנא את הרבנות וכל תורה שאין עמה מלאכה סופה בטילה וגוררת עון וסוף אדם זה שיהא מלסטם את הבריות:<br><br>יא. מעלה גדולה היא למי שהוא מתפרנס ממעשה ידיו ומדת חסידים הראשונים היא ובזה זוכה לכל כבוד וטובה שבעולם הזה ולעולם הבא שנאמר יגיע כפיך כי תאכל אשריך וטוב לך אשריך בעולם הזה וטוב לך לעולם הבא שכולו טוב:<br><br>And that is nothing compared to the Rambam's comments in Pirkei Avos at http://tpeople.co.il/leibowitz/ponovitz.html<br><br>Bottom Line - yes many Gedolim in the Chareidi world have said, for whatever reason, that yeshiva students should not fight in the Israeli army. I am not their Bar Plugta, though I do question the attitudes displayed currently.<br><br>But please - leave the Rambam out of it. He so clearly does NOT support this position.Ariel Shmendrickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03590253019566786625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-46496696593886907452012-07-21T18:42:21.592-05:002012-07-21T18:42:21.592-05:001. The tribe of Levi did participate in wars, see ...1. The tribe of Levi did participate in wars, see Divrey Hayamim 1:12:27-29 and of course the Hashmonaim. See also Rambam Melachim 8:4 "הכוהן מותר ביפת תואר" and 7:8 (actually a Mishna in Sota) "והמארס אישה האסורה לו, כגון אלמנה לכוהן גדול, גרושה וחלוצה לכוהן הדיוט וכו'" - but these could be explained by אוקימתות as some Achronim did.<br><br>2. How is this compatible with not counting Levites as יוצאי צבא ? Simple answer is that they were exempt only from the war of כיבוש as they were not to get a share in the conquered land. They did take part in any other war, including Midyan.<br><br>3. What about the Rambam in Halacha 12? Good question. The source for this Rambam is unknown, so it's hard to say. However, note that in Halacha 11 the Levites are included, so it could very well be that לא עורכין מלחמה כשאר ישראל only means that they are exempt from *some* wars.<br><br>4. Anyway, regarding Talmidey Hachamim, the Rambam (end of Shemita & Yovel) is a very weak source לענ"ד. If one wishes to claim Halacha 13 to refer to everything mentioned in #12 (and not just for what it says in #13 explicitly), then we should conclude that לא נוחלין applies to them too. Given that Yehoshua, Kalev, Atniel ben Knaz etc did get their part in the land, the only conclusion could be that they were not on a high enough level to be included in #13. Who is, then?<br><br>Besides, it seems unlikely that the Rambam would present such a Hiddush (with no clear source in Shas) out of place, and not in Hilchot Melachim or in T"T 6:10 where it belongs. <br><br>5. Thus, it seems obvious to me that #13 is the Mussar ending of Shemita veYovel, as the Rambam does many times. Halacha #13 says that whoever meets the standards set therein, will be rewarded and Hashem will take care of his needs ויזכה לו בעה"ז דבר המספיק לו כמו שזכה לכהנים ללוים. (This does not mean that other people should see that it is done, as the Rambam clearly forbids T"H taking money from others).<br><br>See also Chasam Sofer http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=19919&st=&pgnum=43 ד"ה מנדה בלו<br><br>Having said that, I think the modern question of exemption from Army service is a completely different issue, and should be discussed on a different level. While no one (or almost no one, if you do wish to use the Rambam above) can claim an exemption based on his personal spiritual level, it is up to the ציבור to decide if they want to exempt certain people in the interest of national missions, such as restoring and maintaining the Torah world. However, if this is indeed the justification then (a) it's a decision to be made by the ציבור, which currently translates to the political arena (b) factors such as other public should play a role and (c) the focus should be what would be better to the Torah world, not what would be better to each individual. Are Yeshivos today doing any better due to the forced recruitment of a whole generation to within their walls?Elihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-23651967300237794242012-07-20T17:58:22.856-05:002012-07-20T17:58:22.856-05:00Oh, I remember why!This came in the mail a few min...Oh, I remember why!<br><br>This came in the mail a few minutes ago.<br><br>From http://tinyurl.com/76ra2yc <br><br>According to a Kikar Shabbat report, the Vishnitzer Rebbe from Monsey Shlita may <br>boycott the main Siyum HaShas because �Zionist rabbis� are expected to address <br>the tzibur. This apparently may also lead to other prominent rabbonim and <br>admorim shlita to boycott the event. <br><br>Until this announcement, residents of Eretz Yisroel were envious of Jews in <br>North America which was holding one major siyum for all as opposed to in Eretz <br>Yisrael there are siyumim for Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Litvish and dati leumi. The <br>rebbe�s announcement however changes all of this. <br><br>Invited to address that forum is Tel Aviv Chief Rabbi Yisrael Meir Lau Shlita as <br>well as Rosh Yeshivas HaMekubalim Ahavas Shalom HaRav HaGaon Yaakov Hillel <br>Shlita. <br><br>The Vishnitzer Rebbe Monsey, told organizers earlier in the week he cannot <br>attend since the �Zionist rabbis� will be attending in an official capacity. <br><br>Leaders of Agudas Yisrael in the United States are working to find a solution, <br>and they are quoted anonymously by Kikar Shabbat as saying �we are taking about <br>important admorim, rabbonim and mashpi�im, but on the other side of the coin, we <br>must remain cognizant of the fact that 80% of those who will be participating in <br>the siyum are identified with the Modern Orthodox world, and for them, dafka the <br>addresses from these �Zionist rabbonim� as it were is what is drawing them to <br>attend.Eliezernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-85423413755621669212012-07-20T17:49:41.719-05:002012-07-20T17:49:41.719-05:00Then you have the Jonathan Rosenblum problem. But...Then you have the Jonathan Rosenblum problem. But why nobody- other than Harav Steinman- has the guts and seichel to get involved in developing an alternative, such as Sheirut Le'umi, I don't know. Because we are pathologically and inexorably self destructive, I suppose.Eliezernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-51469078849873327752012-07-20T17:37:06.693-05:002012-07-20T17:37:06.693-05:00One point I don't think was brought up:You adm...One point I don't think was brought up:<br>You admit that there are batlanim, frauds, misusers of the yeshiva exemption system. If you know this, then the Rosh Yeshivas know this. So why don't they expel them and so inform the authorities?<br><br>Is this not analogous to certain communities who claim to abhor child abuse but ostracize anybody who reports it, either as a witness or as a victim?<br><br>Is the refusal to report not equivalent [at least in appearance] to protection the criminals?great unknownnoreply@blogger.com