tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post7575676141710348388..comments2024-03-19T23:03:01.685-05:00Comments on Beis Vaad L'Chachamim: The Tefilla of Rebbi Nechunya ben Hakana: Mandatory?Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-456382558585523812014-05-06T09:14:09.982-05:002014-05-06T09:14:09.982-05:00Beside his famous stance of defending minhagim far...Beside his famous stance of defending minhagim far more than the Chafetz Chaim, I think the AH was exceptional even within his own culture. It took courage and confidence to write the Aruch Hashulchan Ha'asid on Zera'im, Kodshim, and Taharos. Too bad his style of writing wasn't as effective as the Chafetz Chaim's brilliant and unprecedented three part method.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-17023213794452133272014-05-06T07:52:43.113-05:002014-05-06T07:52:43.113-05:00ועכשיו לא נהגו בזה, ונראה משום דעכשיו הלומדים בבית...ועכשיו לא נהגו בזה, ונראה משום דעכשיו הלומדים בבית המדרש אינם מורים הוראות<br /><br />You have to live in a certain intellectual culture to buy into this chiluk. Can you imagine, for example, someone like R' Ovadya Yosef zt"l writing words like that?Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-23251932258350437282014-05-05T19:50:53.547-05:002014-05-05T19:50:53.547-05:00No need to apologise. I really enjoy your posts. ...No need to apologise. I really enjoy your posts. At least it feels like real Torah and a search for emes.Avrohomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-68956766188024375722014-05-05T07:59:14.466-05:002014-05-05T07:59:14.466-05:00Chaim, Avrohom, I changed the whole post in light ...Chaim, Avrohom, I changed the whole post in light of your comments. Irresponsible of me not to check the Aruch Hashulchan before posting- I looked at the Levush and the SAHarav, and neither said anything interesting, so I didn't bother checking the AH. Yasher kochachem.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-76254430565209208812014-05-04T20:26:16.901-05:002014-05-04T20:26:16.901-05:00Just saw this answer to your question on vbm websi...Just saw this answer to your question on vbm website. Haven't seen the Aruch Hashulchan inside, but it would provide a nice answer to why we don't see Rosh Yeshivos saying it<br /><br />The Ritva, on the other hand, sees this as a voluntary prayer. Those of us who do not recite the prayer rely either upon the Ritva's position or upon the theory advanced by the Arukh Ha-shulchan (O.C. 110:16) that the prayer is obligatory only for poskim attempting to render halakhic decisions.Avrohomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-27414262861612366302014-05-04T10:40:05.228-05:002014-05-04T10:40:05.228-05:00I don't think you need rayos that Ahava Rabba ...I don't think you need rayos that Ahava Rabba is a bakasha. אבינו האב הרחמן המרחם רחם עלינו ותן בלבנו בינה להבין. ולהשכיל לשמוע ללמד וללמד לשמור ולעשות ולקים את כל דברי תלמוד תורתך באהבה and so forth.<br />The Magen Avraham (60 sk2) I was thinking of actually says something else, he brings in 60 sk2 that Ahava Rabba was written so that we should have kavana for the Zechiros- banu bacharta=mattan Torah, keiravtanu=maamad har Sinai, leshimcha hagaddol=Amalek, lehodos=Miriam and Mitzrayim you'll think about in the last parsha of Shma.<br /><br />At your service.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-64924031927539360892014-05-04T07:42:11.213-05:002014-05-04T07:42:11.213-05:00I hear. Where does the Magen Avraham say Ahava Ra...I hear. Where does the Magen Avraham say Ahava Rabba is an important bakasha? Not sure I know the difference between a bakasha and beracha, but I just took it as pashtus that it is a birkas krias shema and therefore different to a bakasha. The uniqueness of RRR was that he would do it in front of all of us whereas I assumed most people just said it by themselves before they started learning in the morning. But I agree with you that simply from experiencing yeshiva, had I not seen the Shulchan Aruch I would have thought it is simply a nice thing to say, more of a minhag than chiyuv. In any event, nice blog and thanks for pointing all of this out. Definitely something to think about.Avrohomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-8275281609551243562014-05-04T07:29:58.122-05:002014-05-04T07:29:58.122-05:00The bedieved by birkas hatorah is because of chang...The bedieved by birkas hatorah is because of changing the matbei'a. I don't believe RNBH's tefilla has a din of matbei'a she'tav'u chachamim. And I don't know why you say that Ahava Rabba is a bracha, not a bakasha. Besides the nusach, the Magen Avraham says it is a very important bakasha. The raya from RRR is a raya farkert, because his doing so was memorable due to its being unique, highlighting the fact that nobody else does it.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-21423988185742969702014-05-04T01:05:43.409-05:002014-05-04T01:05:43.409-05:00I don't thithink the Ahava Rabba pshat makes m...I don't thithink the Ahava Rabba pshat makes much sense. It is only bidieved that it can replace birkas hatorah so don't believe that could be the reason for not saying it. Furthermore, ahava rabba is a beracha, Rebbe Nechunya is a bakasha so don't think one could even bidieved replace the other. I am still not convinved that Roshei Yeshivos don't say it. I remember every time Reb Refoel Reichmann would give a shiur in our yeshiva, he would say it in front of us right before he started the shiur.Avrohomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-28500710944123310422014-05-03T23:12:43.205-05:002014-05-03T23:12:43.205-05:00Thanks. I have to look at it tomorrow bl'n. ...Thanks. I have to look at it tomorrow bl'n. Of course, that cannot be the reason for not saying it, when nobody holds like that l'halacha. I thought the suggestion about Ahavah Rabbah was interesting- especially in light of the Gemara in Brachos 11b brought in Shulchan Aruch 47 that you can be yotzei Birkas Hatorah with Ahava Rabbah, although (as Tosfos brings from the Yerushalmi) that this is only if you learn immediately after. It seems to me that the language of Ahava Rabba should do the same for the tefilla of RNBH.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-61208540277684554232014-05-03T22:52:57.036-05:002014-05-03T22:52:57.036-05:00Rav Eisenberg,
Just saw in the oz vehadar versio...Rav Eisenberg,<br /><br /><br />Just saw in the oz vehadar version of Mishna Berura that the Rivvevan holds that the chachomim argued on Rebbe Nechunya and held that the tefila was not a chova. Maybe the Rambam's psak was never really practiced (despite being in the Shulchan Aruch and the Tur).Avrohomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-78268886595146094762014-05-02T12:00:33.152-05:002014-05-02T12:00:33.152-05:00You're right. The expression tefilla ketzara ...You're right. The expression tefilla ketzara is indeed only used regarding those two tefillos, and the Rambam probably was thinking that if he wrote the Mishnayos, he wouldn't have used that expression by both. That would explain why he threw in tachanun- out of pique. Although I know that tachanun is to some extent part of Shmoneh esrei, and if you're mafsik before tachanun you can't say it, it's still an odd thing to say, unless the Rambam was annoyed by the language of the mishna implying it was like shmoneh esrei.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-35656677665773233242014-05-02T11:39:57.217-05:002014-05-02T11:39:57.217-05:00>>>but what's the hava amina that you...>>>but what's the hava amina that you would begin with Avos, Gevura and Kedusha, as if it were a kind of Havineinu, and then say tachanun.<br /><br />The lashon hamishna is tefilah ketzara -- without knowing anything else, why would you not understand that to me a havineunu type prayer? I think you are looking for lomdus where the Rambam just meant to clarify what the words mean, esp given that the context easily could lead one to confusion.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.com