tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post8752240422479194562..comments2024-03-19T23:03:01.685-05:00Comments on Beis Vaad L'Chachamim: Beis Shammai and Beis HillelEliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-32602207082254375402015-07-04T21:12:58.690-05:002015-07-04T21:12:58.690-05:00I finally had time to look at the LR, and I don...I finally had time to look at the LR, and I don't get it. He appears to say 4 things:<br /><br />1- The central point of debate between Batei Hillel and Shammai was chesed vs gevurah/din.<br />2- It was between deeper look and initial impression.<br />3- It was between actualization and potential.<br /><br />Around these three different impressions, which not only aren't tied together, the latter two seem inversely correlated, the LR brackets with:<br />4- We do not pursue the Truth of the Torah, since that's Divine and beyond reason. We pursue that of the truth we can internalize and use to elevate ourselves.<br /><br />I had no problem with the opening and closing. It's the diverse descriptions of what the LR is apparently saying is all one thing that has me confused.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-67376312259806571182015-06-28T22:05:00.937-05:002015-06-28T22:05:00.937-05:00I was particularly annoyed by the "graduated ...I was particularly annoyed by the "graduated from Ponovezh" silliness. I know someone in Chicago whose grandfather's matzeiva says that he got Semicha from Slabodkeh. Huh???? Actually, they didn't even let talmidim sit in their beis medrash while they were learning for semicha. You had to leave and go sit in some other dorfel and get semicha from the Rov there.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-66409292290521296682015-06-26T12:22:29.208-05:002015-06-26T12:22:29.208-05:00Ouch. I apologize. I certainly am not a bigger l...Ouch. I apologize. I certainly am not a bigger lamdan than R Yosef Engel. I guess you're right, it was just a case of "obvious only after seeing the pshat." I'll change my snarky remark in the post soon. Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-71887875043595881412015-06-26T12:17:14.005-05:002015-06-26T12:17:14.005-05:00R' Yosef Engel does bring this case as a ra...R' Yosef Engel does bring this case as a ra'aya, so I would not dismiss the kashe as not a kashe. Ex post facto, given that the Rebbe did not bring it as a raya'ah, you can come up with a hesber why, but I wouldn't say its obvious that this case doesn't belong on the list. R"Y Engel wasn't a nobody either.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-31359852975352273752015-06-26T11:53:21.895-05:002015-06-26T11:53:21.895-05:00I put both into the post. Thanks.
Forgive me, bu...I put both into the post. Thanks. <br /><br />Forgive me, but I'm not nispoeil. I know the Rebbe was a genius, but this is not the rayah. I does seem like geonus at first, but if you think about it for a minute, I think you'll agree that the guy should've realized why his kashe was not a kashe. What it proves, which doesn't need proof, was that the Rebbe didn't pile on rayos without carefully thinking about each one, like some do. Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-81185911107864094452015-06-26T09:33:27.929-05:002015-06-26T09:33:27.929-05:00if this mehalaich in the machlokes hillel and sham...if this mehalaich in the machlokes hillel and shamai was not genius enough, this is genius al gabei genius:<br />http://mevakeshlev.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-geonus-of-lubavitcher-rebbe.html<br />Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-23557521486534274252015-06-26T09:13:49.516-05:002015-06-26T09:13:49.516-05:00Wow, that's thorough. Now I have all the marei...Wow, that's thorough. Now I have all the marei mekomos I was missing. And more. Thanks.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-29510651372661160782015-06-26T09:00:15.004-05:002015-06-26T09:00:15.004-05:00http://www.sichos-in-english.org/books/beacons-on-...http://www.sichos-in-english.org/books/beacons-on-the-talmud-sea/01.htmChaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-56113071048286380202015-06-25T11:40:57.554-05:002015-06-25T11:40:57.554-05:00I just read the first part of the Malbim, and put ...I just read the first part of the Malbim, and put it into the post, and it's clear that your tzushtell is exactly what he's saying, and that the machlokes chotei/kadosh would be Shammai/Hillel. It could be that the Malbim is like the Mesillas Yeshorim, especially after seeing the Malbim's ראשו ורובו בסוכה ושלחנו בתוך הבית.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-63474977408166092312015-06-24T13:38:45.110-05:002015-06-24T13:38:45.110-05:00I understood that kind of thing to be the purpose ...I understood that kind of thing to be the purpose behind this blog. So of course I don't mind. Just double-check my memory first!micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-49590836556239857612015-06-24T13:26:58.234-05:002015-06-24T13:26:58.234-05:00Bli neder, I'm going to put this into the post...Bli neder, I'm going to put this into the post. I hope you don't mind stylistic changes for purposes of consistency. Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-46045634692791184412015-06-24T13:25:27.124-05:002015-06-24T13:25:27.124-05:00I don't remember if he speaks about it, but th...I don't remember if he speaks about it, but that's a very interesting tzushtell.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-29442363662766992882015-06-24T12:53:53.727-05:002015-06-24T12:53:53.727-05:00Central to both theories is the machloqes about wh...Central to both theories is the machloqes about whether shamayim or aretz were built first (Chagiga 12a). To the Malbim, it's about the relationship between qodesh and chol. (Note: chol == chal, just as Purim can chal on a Sunday, qedushah can be chal on physical entities.) To R Zevin, it's about ko'ach (shamayim) vs po'el (eretz).<br /><br />R' Zevin's shitah is a minor variant on the Rogochover's tzurah vs chomer. (Tzafnas Panei'ach #50, an essay after teshuvah 255, and I am told elsewhere). R' Zevin cites him (Le'Or haHalakhah "sheleg", fn 11).<br /><br />Last, I like the Maharal's on Avos ch. 1. We are told the machloqesin multiplied "shelo shimshu es rabosam". Hillel was nasi, his job was to run an orderly society. Shammai was av beis din. Talmidim who don't get to know their rebbes' weltenschaung deeply would confuse how they behave in their roles with their actual approach to Torah. And so, we get to the rachamim vs din divide that R' Tzadoq discusses.<br /><br />I also think there is a tzad hashaveh to be explored.<br /><br />Rachamim saves a person because of his potential. Din condemns a person because of how much of that potential was unused. Beis Shammai therefore demand our withdrawal (din / gevurah) more often, because we tend to mess things up. Ashrei mi shelo nivra. Whereas Beis Hilllel focus on the cases where we don't, because using that potential is (leshitasam and therefore leshitaseinu) is what life is all about.<br /><br />micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-38207071360134290592015-06-24T12:23:25.142-05:002015-06-24T12:23:25.142-05:00Does the Malbim connect this to the Kedoshim Tihyu...Does the Malbim connect this to the Kedoshim Tihyu vs. Nazir is a chotei conondrum?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com