tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post4318139552017159827..comments2024-03-19T23:03:01.685-05:00Comments on Beis Vaad L'Chachamim: Devarim 1:6. Fixing a Mistake in a BrachaEliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-10608466411137075052011-09-05T15:14:37.503-05:002011-09-05T15:14:37.503-05:00Tzvee (Dr. Zahavy) wrote:what do you think of this...Tzvee (Dr. Zahavy) wrote:<br><br>what do you think of this law? if you wait 24 hours and repeat minchah, that's okay, that's good. but if you wait an hour or two and repeat it, it's not good. discuss.<br><br>b answers:<br><br>I don't think I can respond adequately, but here's my attempt.<br>First, what you are saying is absolutely true. If one chooses to pray all day, that is virtuous. One may say Tehillim, or say a Krovetz, or meditate upon Barchi Nafshi. Shmoneh Esrei is different: It was composed as a face to face prayer. Unique to Shmoneh Esrei, one's demeanor and state of mind must be like an עומד לפני המלך. We presume no inherent right to approach Hashem, and do so only in certain conditions: that the Avos did so and taught us to follow in their path, and in an echo of the Korbanot.<br><br>If a person insists on adding a Tefillas Nedava, he'd better be sure that he has kavana for every single word, because it would be a chutzpa to blithely walk in to the king and distractedly begin dreaming about some trivial matter. It would be not only a chutzpa, it would be an offense of lese-majesty.<br><br>Additionally, please see Mishlei 25:16-17, where it says <br>טז דְּבַשׁ מָצָאתָ, אֱכֹל דַּיֶּךָּ: פֶּן-תִּשְׂבָּעֶנּוּ, וַהֲקֵאתוֹ.<br>יז הֹקַר רַגְלְךָ, מִבֵּית רֵעֶךָ: פֶּן-יִשְׂבָּעֲךָ, וּשְׂנֵאֶךָ. <br><br>These psukim are taken to be a warning that excessive familiarity can cause damage to the relationship, passuk 16 regarding the effect on the person, and 17 from the perspective of G-d.<br><br>That's the best I can do.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-83718875636180034682011-09-01T21:11:50.596-05:002011-09-01T21:11:50.596-05:00what do you think of this law? if you wait 24 hour...what do you think of this law? if you wait 24 hours and repeat minchah, that's okay, that's good. but if you wait an hour or two and repeat it, it's not good. discuss.tzveehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15833902273722124103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-34420518606735993902011-08-16T14:47:05.989-05:002011-08-16T14:47:05.989-05:00Yes, Reb Tzvee, all the recorded poskim, from the ...Yes, Reb Tzvee, all the recorded poskim, from the early rishonim and on, agree that repeating Mincha is a bracha levatala, unless you make it a tfilat nedava, which requires that you have perfect focus on the meaning of every word and that you add something that was not in the previous Shmoneh Esrei tefillot.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-42696615354289510442011-08-08T17:57:05.743-05:002011-08-08T17:57:05.743-05:00but does anyone say that davening minchah twice or...but does anyone say that davening minchah twice or three times is a berakhah levatallah?tzveehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15833902273722124103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-87694318507806622892011-08-07T13:20:28.494-05:002011-08-07T13:20:28.494-05:00Although I knew of your work on Bavli Chulin, I di...Although I knew of your work on Bavli Chulin, I didn't know you translated the Yerushalmi. Remarkable.<br><br>As for the Halacha: in Bavli Brachos 21a Rav Yochanan is immediately followed by Shmuel who says that one who, in middle of Tefilla, remembers that he davened already, must stop even in middle of a Bracha. The Bahag, and the Mechaber after him, paskens like Reb Yochanan where the person is not sure if he davened, and like Shmuel where he knows for a fact that he davened. That is, like Shmuel, we require some "chiddush," some innovation in the voluntary Tefilla. If he's not sure if he davenned, the release from doubt qualifies as the innovation. If he's sure he davenned, then his voluntary Tefilla has to be innovative and intended, from beginning to end, as voluntary. Where you remember in middle, it's too late to re-characterize the Tefilla, so you must immediately stop.<br>See, e.g., Rambam 1 Tefilla 3, OC 107:1 and 4. As always, the best review of the evolution of this halacha is to be found in the Aruch Hashulchan OC 107.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-77396117429272908932011-08-07T07:04:59.867-05:002011-08-07T07:04:59.867-05:00If you don't know who tzvee is, here's a l...If you don't know who tzvee is, here's a line from his page on Amazon:<br><i>Since 2006, his popular Judaica-oriented current-events blog, Tzvee's Talmudic Blog (Tzvee.blogspot.com), has logged more than one million page views.</i><br>Let me tell you that one million page views for a blog that engages the mind is a lot.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-15485299130173999662011-08-06T23:27:32.513-05:002011-08-06T23:27:32.513-05:00You say, "the halacha is that if you had alre...You say, "the halacha is that if you had already davenned e.g. mincha, and started shmoneh esrei again without remembering that you had davenned already, you are making a bracha le'vatala, and you stop in middle of a bracha." Are you certain that is the law? I always think of the saying of R. Yohanan, "For said R. Yohanan, 'But oh, that a person might [have the opportunity to] pray all day long…'" (p. 35 of my Yerushalmi Berakhot translation). That implies you can/should daven as much as possible, i.e., no limit on how many times you can say minchah.<br><br>Also are you really "fixing a mistake" or are you "cleverly avoiding a mistake"? I think the latter.<br><br>Oh, did you see my new book yet? On Amazon you can look inside it at http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Favorite-Prayers-Tzvee-Zahavy/dp/0615509495 and you can also buy it! It has a chapter on berakhot as meditations.tzveehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15833902273722124103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-22967371295572694532011-08-06T22:39:07.433-05:002011-08-06T22:39:07.433-05:00I'm starting with the kal and moving toward th...I'm starting with the kal and moving toward the chamur.<br><br>1. Eli, the term is appositive. Atta. Who is Att? Elokeinu. Basically the same grammatical function.<br><br>2. Efrayim, you're right. According to Reb Chaim Volozhiner, Atta is the subject that begins an independent clause. To tell the truth, once great unknown brought in the Gemara, what I had brought up became trivial.<br><br>3. Efrayim's point that the Mechaber is talking about a bracha you're not chayav to make, I don't know what you mean. We're talking about birkas hanehnin. And the MB is pointing out the difference between safel lehakel and birkas hamazon, since the Gemara remains with a baya delo ifsheta.<br><br>4. As for Eli's idea that a passuk cures shem levatala regardless of kavana, here's where I stand. I agree with Eli. Although a bracha begun with the wrong intent is levatala, a passuk is kosher no matter with what kavana it was begun with. This certainly would accord with the Aruch Hashulchan in 209.<br>However, that may be only where the passuk has the form of a bracha as well. But if you begin a bracha, and try to entirely change the function of the Sheim into part of a passuk, that, I think, cannot work. I do NOT mean that there's a separate din of Bracha levatala besides Sheim levatala. I'm just saying that if you began it as a bracha, you can't make it into a passuk- unless the passuk is a bracha.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-558368140887210762011-08-06T21:01:31.856-05:002011-08-06T21:01:31.856-05:00The advice the Shulchan Aruch gives is for a case ...The advice the Shulchan Aruch gives is for a case when you weren't mechuyav in a brachah at all, even me'drabbanan. The MB is just saying that for burchas hamazon the wrong intentions when you start invalidate your kiyum. Re Eli's point about atah - there's a big machlokes about that, I thing R' Chaim Volozhiner held atah is a subject.Efrayimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-89892138117337664662011-08-06T16:38:09.210-05:002011-08-06T16:38:09.210-05:00Maybe in Brachot 12a the problem is lack of proper...Maybe in Brachot 12a the problem is lack of proper kavana for the correct Bracha, and not the incorrect kavana for the incorrect Bracha that has been said. That is, there is no problem in nullifying kavana from a Sheim already said and then using it for a general purpose, which does not require any kavana whatsoever (like just saying a Pasuk). Thus, Lamdeini Chukeicha should work, and also the Chavatzelet HaSharon's solution. If the above is correct, and for a Pasuk the specific kavana for the Sheim is not an issue as long as you say the Pasuk properly, changing from object to subject should not be a problem either. <br><br>Parenthetically, I'm not sure "Hashem" in "Baruch Ata Hashem" is an object at all. It could be a synonym to 'Ata' (forgot the grammatical term), as if we say: You, i.e. Hashem, are Baruch.Elihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-80558345594799443932011-08-05T16:58:03.899-05:002011-08-05T16:58:03.899-05:00Great tzushtell.Great tzushtell.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-63623739065268186452011-08-05T16:23:41.317-05:002011-08-05T16:23:41.317-05:00In support of your hesitance to accept this as a p...In support of your hesitance to accept this as a panacea, ayin the sugya of hischil b'... v'siyaim b'..., Berachot 12a, where once there is a specific object for the Sheimos of the bracha, it cannot be changed to a different object.<br><br>I suspect that these eitzot is in the geder of "it can't hoyt."great unknownnoreply@blogger.com