tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post4795920583391489732..comments2024-03-28T23:20:49.777-05:00Comments on Beis Vaad L'Chachamim: The Rambam and the Four TibulimEliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-31040097026741679062013-03-10T13:06:01.384-05:002013-03-10T13:06:01.384-05:00Avraham, sorry for my brevity earlier. Obviously t...Avraham, sorry for my brevity earlier. Obviously the Rambam does not follows the mishna's girsa, because of Rava's (116a) "לא סגיא דלא מטבל" question. What I wanted to show from the mishna is that the apriori assumption was that they did מטבל every night. Rava does not challenge that, but objects to the wording from which it seems we must be מטבל every night.<br><br>So, what we do see from there is that "אין מטב(י)לין" does not mean "we never do it" but rather "we do not *always* do it" (whatever מטב(י)לין means). <br><br>All of the above is independent on the interpretation of מטב(י)ל. All Rishonim going in the "dip" route explain that "סתם מאכלם היה בטיבול". So again, you should ask, how come אין אנו מטבילין אפילו פעם אחת? Didn't they eat at all on regular nights? <br><br>Elihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-5351210345131705382013-03-10T11:05:43.907-05:002013-03-10T11:05:43.907-05:00I see that I've gotten lazy. To have posted t...I see that I've gotten lazy. To have posted the answer about saltwater/charoses without reading what I quoted from the Rambam is just wrong. Also, I need to check the Tur's quote from the Avi Ha'Ezri on the three tibulim, why he only asks on the kricha and not on the Rambam's basic shitta. So I'm going to incorporate the comments into the post and either re-do it or just erase it and start over.Barzilai/Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-82612653281227047292013-03-10T07:39:03.866-05:002013-03-10T07:39:03.866-05:00Eli,Problem is girsa in my Rambam (8,2) is shebech...Eli,<br><br>Problem is girsa in my Rambam (8,2) is shebechol haleylos eyn anu matbilim afilu paam achasAvrahamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-17882180984931050902013-03-10T07:17:58.990-05:002013-03-10T07:17:58.990-05:00Re MN's answer - according to the Rambam the K...Re MN's answer - according to the Rambam the Karpas is also eaten with Charoses, leaving us with only one thing we're dipping in.<br><br>Avraham, <br>Note that the girsa in Gemara (Pesachim 116a, unlike our Haggadah) is שבכל הלילות אנו מטב(י)לין פעם אחת הלילה הזה שתי פעמים<br><br>Elihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-31723829179791519312013-03-10T06:30:43.269-05:002013-03-10T06:30:43.269-05:00I must admit I have no clue what Eli's answer ...I must admit I have no clue what Eli's answer is. It makes no sense to me. The question is a contrast, on all other nights we don't even "eat" once whereas tonight we split it up and eat twice. I understand the this night we eat twice, but if you keep the meaning of metabel consistent what does it mean that on other nights we don't eat once. Metabel means dip, however you write it. Like Rashbam brings in the mishna, hashamash metabel...that is a lashon of eating by dipping. Their standard mode was through dips, and I would say nowadays it is quite popular as well.Avrahamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-86071051400629407222013-03-09T19:56:17.040-06:002013-03-09T19:56:17.040-06:00In the Rambam, the word Stira does not exist. Wha...In the Rambam, the word Stira does not exist. What appears to be inconsistent is just the Rambam's way of demonstrating that we don't have a clue. As for the alleged stira, you have Eli's answer, which is hard to dispute, you have the "only vegetable" answer, and you have Dr. Stone's other answer, that the Rambam paskens like Hillel. Today someone suggested another approach during my shiur, which I'm going to put into the post.Barzilai/Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-50992506892121458172013-03-09T06:41:49.834-06:002013-03-09T06:41:49.834-06:00I think it is clear in the Rambam that the questio...I think it is clear in the Rambam that the question about the two tibbulim (or answer as the case may be according to the way the Rambam is learning - see also Tos on mishna who also learns that the Kore is answering and it is not a question of the child)only refers to the yerakps because otherwise you would have a simple stira in the Rambam :)Avrahamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-35375777775712916122013-03-08T06:10:59.962-06:002013-03-08T06:10:59.962-06:00If you were at the Rambam's Seder, and he woul...If you were at the Rambam's Seder, and he would serve you Kezayis Rishon with Charoses you would ask for another one, plain. So you would get your Shtey Pe'amim either way.Elihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-63643926939804259712013-03-07T16:29:24.311-06:002013-03-07T16:29:24.311-06:00Eli- I know you're right. It's just diffi...Eli- I know you're right. It's just difficult for me to enjoy knowing that the Rambam's pshat in Matbilim is totally different than Rashi and the way we normally understand it. Maybe the Luchos were written in Libuna'a, and maybe the Aleph Beis begins with Beis. But I don't have to like it. If I were at the Rambam's Seder, and he said "Me'tavlin Shtei Pe'amim," I would tell him to say it like everyone else.Barzilai/Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-54105610528011668722013-03-07T16:25:54.720-06:002013-03-07T16:25:54.720-06:00Avraham- Your point about the tibul of bread being...Avraham- Your point about the tibul of bread being discounted, as Dr. Stone also pointed out, is fine, but why do you say it's clear in the Rambam? Where? <br><br>The point about who it is that actually recites the Mah Nishtana is very interesting. I was wondering about that myself, and reading the Rambam I think there's no way to read it differently.<br>Barzilai/Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-62227747555450532442013-03-07T05:24:10.395-06:002013-03-07T05:24:10.395-06:00I think it is clear that the Rambam only refers to...I think it is clear that the Rambam only refers to the yerakos that are being dipped. And remember, according to the Rambam, the question of two tibbulim is not really a question but rather an answer that the father tells the child. So the child asks, what is going on, what is different, and the father (who is the koreh) answers him that we are going to have another tibul with the Maror. The reason he focuses on the tibulim with the yerakos is because of the sugya on kuf yud daled and lets the kore guide the discussion and delve into the concept of mitzvos tsrichos kavanah etc. Avrahamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-4916113219656350892013-03-04T09:50:51.376-06:002013-03-04T09:50:51.376-06:00re Eli: אינו יודע לשאול is precisely the condition...re Eli:<br><br> אינו יודע לשאול is precisely the condition which rebbeim in cheder and yeshiva want their talmidim to be in. Thus, the kindergarten teachers are doing the job they are supposed to do.great Unknownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15728976902210831137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-51706038483506753642013-03-04T00:58:13.814-06:002013-03-04T00:58:13.814-06:00The true answer is that Rambam's girsa is not ...The true answer is that Rambam's girsa is not מטבילין (dip) but מטבלין (Patach ט), which means, roughly, eat, like "השמש מטבל בבני מעיים". Thus, what the child asks is why do we split our se'uda and eat two times in one night. This makes sense as it comes right after Akiras Shulchan; if the question is abount dip counting, the child would have to stipulate it from the charoses on the ke'ara.<br><br>The reason I'm so confident about this pshat in Rambam, is his Peirush Hamishna on מטבל בחזרת where he says "ענין מטבל מתעסק באכילת הירק".<br><br>Many Rishonim also explain the question this way, or very similar, see Meiri, R. David, Maharil, etc. For example, Avudraham says: ופי' אין אנו מטבלין אין אנו אוכלים קודם עיקר סעודתינו ירקות אפילו פעם אחת, הלילה הזה שתי פעמים אחת בכרפס ואחת במרור, כי הטבול אצל רז"ל היא האכילה כי כל מאכלם היה ע"י טיבול so he doesn't accept Rambam's etymology, but still goes more or less in the same direction.<br><br>So again, kindergarten teachers turn our kids into "אינו יודע לשאול"Elihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.com