tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post5497471107882676613..comments2024-03-28T23:20:49.777-05:00Comments on Beis Vaad L'Chachamim: Ki Savo: Devarim 27:18. Arur Mashgeh Iveir Baderech and Harmless MisrepresentationEliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-87698469642796367422010-08-29T13:16:54.395-05:002010-08-29T13:16:54.395-05:00I asked Rav Heinemann of Baltimore about the issue...I asked Rav Heinemann of Baltimore about the issue of nikuv haabomasum and he replied that this is a vanishingly small miut. His summation was that the hiddur of chalav yisroel is far more significant than the hiddur of worrying about the perforated abomasum.great unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-1343001772198325572010-08-29T05:23:01.489-05:002010-08-29T05:23:01.489-05:00I retract what I said about Rav Moshe's lack o...I retract what I said about Rav Moshe's lack of haqpadah on CY-labeled milk. I was corrected by someone who would know better than I what Rav Moshe did, and how Rav Reuvein perceived what he did. I don't know how a misunderstanding arose, but clearly I do not recall the conversation accurate.<br><br>Rav Moshe WAS careful to drink CY-labeled milk, although Rav Reuevein only switched after his father's petirah.<br><br>My apologies for arguing so vehemently on a faulty memory. As one of the quotes in my rotating email signature file says "Rescue me from the desire to win every argument and to always be right." - Liqutei Tefillos (Rav Nassan of Breslav) But not being a Breslover, I never thought to actually make this particular baqashah!<br><br>Side note: I have been using the idiom "CY-labeled" because everyone who keeps kosher is maqpid on "chalav yisrael". The question is what that halachic category includes, not whether or not there really is such a gezeira still binding upon us. I am guessing that's why the Igeros Moshe uses "chalav hacompanies" rather than wrongly labeling the milk in question as most people would, "chalav stam". (Although I guess those who hold that chalav hacompanies is altogether prohibited would be correct in their view to call it "chalav stam".)<br><br>-michamichahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-25728991951656686152010-08-27T17:35:12.711-05:002010-08-27T17:35:12.711-05:00Thanks, Eli. I had brought the Rema in the post, ...Thanks, Eli. I had brought the Rema in the post, but I called him the Rama. I didn't mention the Shach though, and I just put it in.Barzilaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-79146965803820632722010-08-27T08:11:46.571-05:002010-08-27T08:11:46.571-05:00Rema YD 119:7 and Shach #20Rema YD 119:7 and Shach #20Elihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-2124868204224909402010-08-26T19:44:58.439-05:002010-08-26T19:44:58.439-05:00MG:Affordable and your phrasing "readily avai...MG:<br><br>Affordable and your phrasing "readily available" are pretty much the same idea. Supply and demand.<br><br>But that's not what I said. What I said was that R' Reuvein said his father switched more out of a desire to support Jewish businesses than chalav yisrael itself. He happened to switch when this haqpadah was not an enormous sacrifice. It wasn't the motivator, though.<br><br>Anonymous:<br>Don't read too much into my "turn of the century". It could have been well later. But still, decades before Rav Moshe.<br><br>-michamichahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-6195668722607759412010-08-26T18:55:21.560-05:002010-08-26T18:55:21.560-05:00Micha, it's interesting that you say that '...Micha, it's interesting that you say that 'turn of the century' Rabanim were matir, since the first federal food purity act was enacted in 1906. Before that, there was a patchwork of state laws, some strictly enforced, some toothless and honored mostly in the breach.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-40761953548414474592010-08-26T16:56:33.647-05:002010-08-26T16:56:33.647-05:00To micha,I have never heard such a thing about Rav...To micha,<br>I have never heard such a thing about Rav M. Feinstien that he switched to CY because it was affordable????? Rav Feinstein stated in his responsa that when CY milk is readily available, it is a preferable choice. <br><br>http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-issues-cholovYisroel.htmmgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-13825770444844047982010-08-26T11:40:24.816-05:002010-08-26T11:40:24.816-05:00I too was going to chime in with "midevar she...I too was going to chime in with "midevar sheqer tichaq".<br><br>What anonymous writes about R' Moshe is not true. R' Reuven and R' Dovid Feinstein both testify that R' Moshe didn't switch to labeled chalav yisrael until the price gap closed enough to make it affordable. I believe R' Reuven still isn't maqpid, saying his father's switch was simply about supporting Jewish buseinsses, not chalav yisrael.<br><br>However, R' Moshe did hold actually Jew-observed milk is superior, because in one teshuvah he tells a school to spend the extra money to use milk labeled chalav yisrael. Good chinukh to show them not to take a minimalist approach to observance.<br><br>Pet peeve: People in the US were drinking milk based on the US FDA well before Rav Moshe Feinstein. He has the most available, being alive at a time when chalav yisrael was more available, and had its advocates. Not to mention the period in the US -- before then people didn't agitate for their shitah over another's. But R' Henkin, R' Hutner, R' Moshe Soloveichik and R' YB Soloveitchik, my great-grandfather (R' Yisrael Avraham Abba Krieger; RYBS's predecessor in Boston) and numerous other learned city-rabbanim of the turn of the century that history forgot -- for all of them drinking such milk was the norm. Rav Moshe didn't start anything new with his teshuvah.<br><br>But because that's what is written and can be analyzed, we overanalyze Rav Moshe's intent, forgetting that we are really basing ourselves on those prior pesaqim.<br><br>-michamichahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-85411599736659417382010-08-26T10:40:21.966-05:002010-08-26T10:40:21.966-05:00You are absolutely right. If the host would say th...You are absolutely right. If the host would say this is chalav yisrael, he would be lying, and would transgress the issur de'oraysa of midvar sheker tirchak and gneivas da'as.<br><br>But I am asking about a case where the host tells the guest nothing, but just serves a meal, and the guest assumes that all is well. Maybe where you put the non-chalav yisrael in the chalav yisrael container it would be, as you say, lying by misrepresentation, since the label says it is what it's not. But how about where you drop something on the kitchen floor and don't tell your famously fastidious guest- and you know that if he knew, he wouldn't touch it. But you washed it off, and it's just the guests meshugas. Is that different? As Julia Child is supposed to have said, “Just remember that you’re alone in the kitchen.”<br><br>As for Chalav Yisrael, I didn't realize that Reb Moshe was so makpid about it. Thank you for the information.Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-20466336029889621782010-08-26T10:21:19.532-05:002010-08-26T10:21:19.532-05:00It is assur. Forget about the issue of cholov yisr...It is assur. Forget about the issue of cholov yisroel, the person is lying to her guest. End of story. Before I became Cholov Yisroel, I always had cholov ysiroel products for my guests just in case. Now, with regards to Rav Feinstein, people forget that that the Rav was very makpid on cholov yisroel even way back when it was much harder to obtain cholov yisroel milk or cheese. Also, in his responsa he praised those who were makpid on CY saying that it is not considered haughty or arrogant to be strict on this. <br><br>Yes, you absolutely should be concerned about your neighbor's poskim. By lying to your neighbor you show disrespect to the poskim who posken differntly than your own. <br><br>Also, today, people who are cholov stam should be very careful because there have been reports in the Jewish media, many cows in the US have surgeries because of distended abomosum (I hope I wrote that correctly)which deem it treif. So, it is not so clear if the milk is kosher or not. <br><br>BTW, I find it interesting that people who are cholov stam tend to harp on this issue more than the CY people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com