tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post5545751855112632111..comments2024-03-19T23:03:01.685-05:00Comments on Beis Vaad L'Chachamim: Teleology, Heteronomy, and Autonomy Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-71358154378173990712016-09-07T09:29:49.037-05:002016-09-07T09:29:49.037-05:00I changed it. I'd have preferred a two word ti...I changed it. I'd have preferred a two word title, but it can't be helped. Thank you.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-2861310208373661472016-09-06T17:10:06.997-05:002016-09-06T17:10:06.997-05:00I wasn't just nit-picking about the word. (Alt...I wasn't just nit-picking about the word. (Although, as a programmer, such things are an occupational hazard for me.)<br /><br />I was emphasizing also that autonomy isn't heterenomy even as I used it. The idea wasn't to defy G-d, but to create an anti-choq -- a situation where observance depended on understanding, and raw "ana avda deQBH" obedience was not sufficient. But eventual understanding and obedience were expected.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-63982863121209690082016-09-06T16:58:28.918-05:002016-09-06T16:58:28.918-05:00I checked around in the theology and philosophy s...I checked around in the theology and philosophy sites, and I agree that the meaning one ought to assume is as you said. I have to change it. Your suggestion is probably best.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-85993590117456977182016-09-06T11:21:03.720-05:002016-09-06T11:21:03.720-05:00Exonomy's hits seems to be about economics?Exonomy's hits seems to be about economics?micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-79781880386686811982016-09-06T11:19:14.442-05:002016-09-06T11:19:14.442-05:00http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heterono...http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heteronomy<br />"subjection to something else; especially: a lack of moral freedom or self-determination" It's more like oneis more than subjecting oneself to da'as Torah, but I have even heard it used WRT accepting pesaq. Perhaps that's because in terms of defining the law, the sho'el lacks autonomy; even if he has the choice of whether to obey the meishiv's pesaq.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-51075702277200537712016-09-06T10:39:26.958-05:002016-09-06T10:39:26.958-05:00By the way, the next sentence in the Yerushalmi &q...By the way, the next sentence in the Yerushalmi "speaks" to me. And justifies gribenes not just once in a lifetime, but at least once every season.<br />רבי חזקיה ר' כהן בשם רב עתיד אדם ליתן דין וחשבון על כל שראת עינו ולא אכל. ר' לעזר חשש להדא שמועתא ומצמיח ליה פריטין ואכיל בהון מכל מילה חדא בשתא: <br /><br />Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-50954583516900936472016-09-06T10:36:41.288-05:002016-09-06T10:36:41.288-05:00You said a lot in few words. Are you saying that t...You said a lot in few words. Are you saying that the reason is in order that we appreciate the beauty and truth of Hashem's commandment? For those that are unfamiliar with the Yerushalmi, it's the one I use to justify eating gribenes.<br />בי חזקיה ר' כהן בשם רב עתיד אדם ליתן דין וחשבון על כל שראת עינו ולא אכל.<br />I usually understand that in the sense that all the beauty in the world was created so that we should enjoy it with the specific intent to appreciate what Hashem has provided, both the beauty and the ability to enjoy it. This converts aesthetics into dveikus, a shaar habechina experience. <br />I'm going to think about your pshat. It's too good to pass judgment on it immediately. You can't trust hispailus.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-22073955989302238162016-09-06T09:58:21.156-05:002016-09-06T09:58:21.156-05:00This reminds me of the Yerushalmi Kiddushin 4:12 a...This reminds me of the Yerushalmi Kiddushin 4:12 and the story of Rav Hirsch and the alps.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-45524906903652185592016-09-06T09:36:56.572-05:002016-09-06T09:36:56.572-05:00I defer to my local Oxford/University of Chicago- ...I defer to my local Oxford/University of Chicago- trained scholar of Greek, Latin, and theology, whoho tells me that the term is used correctly. Heteronomy here denoting a mode of existence governed by a gestalt of one's self and another, as opposed to exclusively autonomy/internal or exonomy/external.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-30353781136475352142016-09-06T09:22:32.253-05:002016-09-06T09:22:32.253-05:00I think the title should be teleological autonomy....I think the title should be teleological autonomy. G-d saying "I am telling you to do this, but don't take My word for it. On this one, I want you to convince yourself first."<br /><br />Teleological heteronomy would be "lo sasuru mikol asher yagidu lekha, yamin usemol." Heteronomy is giving control to others; and presumably HQBH provides the telos for doing so.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.com