tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post5550256526300859497..comments2024-03-19T23:03:01.685-05:00Comments on Beis Vaad L'Chachamim: Toldos, Breishis 25:25. Eisav, Man of PeaceEliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-5685829353822327322011-11-27T19:45:23.362-06:002011-11-27T19:45:23.362-06:00Also remember that Dovid HaMelech's approach t...Also remember that Dovid HaMelech's approach to the economy of his country, today would be called Burkean [as in Leviathan]. You need money, try pillage. L'chu pishtu y'daichem bi'gdud.grunknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-9775123362740869732011-11-26T18:51:46.171-06:002011-11-26T18:51:46.171-06:00It's my understanding that some of the targets...It's my understanding that some of the targets of the spitting were Armenian priests. I am unaware of any activities by them that are like those of the Greek Orthodox that GrUnk point out. Does anyone know differently?<br><br>Gut Voch Guten ChodeshAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-10647769979013473652011-11-22T14:54:38.584-06:002011-11-22T14:54:38.584-06:00For one, while there is a history of Anti-Semitism...For one, while there is a history of Anti-Semitism is some corners of the Greek Orthodox Church, it was never nearly as bad amongst the Greek Orthodox that it was amongst the Roman Catholics, Lutherans and others. For instance in the eons old war between The Serbs and the Croats, the Serbs were far more pleasant to live amongst than the Catholic Croats. Yes, the Serbs had their own Orthodox Church, but the situation in Thessalonica otherwise known as Salonica, Greece was very similar. Jews in Greece prospered for centuries, and Anti-Semitism from the Greek and Serbian Orthodox Churches was rarely an issue. If there was Anti-Semitism in Greece, it was far more common 2000 years ago than it has been since the establishment of the Orthodox Church in the 11th century. Jews in Salinica had no idea what they were getting into when the Nazi tanks rolled into town. What happened when that happened simply was not part of their collective memories unless they were thinking about Catholic Spain from 1492. So think about this before one spits on a Greek Orthodox clergyman. <br><br>Historically Armenia also has been a place of virtually no Anti-Semitism. And if there was any in a country that historically has not had many Jews, their own genocide of about 1.5 million Armenians at the hands of the Turks seems to have placed the Aryans in that country in a cave for the last 100 years. Some of these Aryan types have re-emerged and are emboldened by some yeshivah students who are spitting at their priests in the Old City of Jerusalem. Hmm. Methinks that we should stop spitting at Xtians of whom we know so little.<br><br>As far as their icons and the drooping figure on the cross whom they worship there will be a confrontation in the near future between those churches who still have the drooping figure on the cross and Mashiach ben Yosef. Perhaps we should wait until that moment before we express our contempt. Until then we should do what my father-in-law did in Europe whenever he saw a church with figurines and pronounced the curse from Devarim, Parshat Eikev 7:26. But for Heaven's sake wait for the clergy guy to pass before spitting on the ground.Dov Bar-Leibhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15915682856620634130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-76995330765774378822011-11-22T11:42:51.213-06:002011-11-22T11:42:51.213-06:00That's always been a problem. It is a truism ...That's always been a problem. It is a truism that Poles are notoriously and viciously anti-semitic. But there are the few that risked their lives to save Jews, just out of chesed. So, are those tzadikim bateil b'rov? Well, people aren't batel be'rov, but in Ksuvos 15 you have the Gemara about zoreik even le'gav, where we do go basar rov by people if not for the din kavu'a. Also, even if they're not batel b'ta'arovos, there's still a din of kol d'parish. <br><br>It's probably obvious that I'm lapsing into the Shev Shmaitsa because I've never found a realistic way to deal with the problem, which isn't nogei'ah le'halacha anyway. We're not holding by moridin velo ma'alin. It's more of an attitude and derech eretz question.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-59607341810281051022011-11-22T11:15:11.228-06:002011-11-22T11:15:11.228-06:00I was addressing the sentiment you quoted that spi...I was addressing the sentiment you quoted that spitting is a kiddush haShem for expressing our disapproval of their religion. Also, it's clear that the church has doctrines that are manifestly anti semitic, but i wouldn't let that affect my behavior towards any individual christian. Not every greek orthodox or catholic person is anti semitic merely for belonging to the religion.Nothing wrongnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-19329282736534539312011-11-22T11:01:50.995-06:002011-11-22T11:01:50.995-06:00I like "Nothing Wrong"s comment. I'...I like "Nothing Wrong"s comment. I'm not sure how it addresses the issues here. Being kind to those that hate us has always been counterproductive. Sometimes, they hate us because they think we despise them, and in such a case כמים הפנים אל פנים helps, but where the hatred is a product of ethnic culture or religious indoctrination, it's worse than a waste of time.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-26327970324225792182011-11-22T10:35:35.091-06:002011-11-22T10:35:35.091-06:00Sometimes people forget it's "or lagoyim&...Sometimes people forget it's "or lagoyim" and not the other way around...I heard a lot of stories growing up about how the goyim are here for us, while it's pretty clear from Tanakh that the opposite is true.Nothing Wrong With Religous Humanismnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-92049765464227969032011-11-22T07:22:19.784-06:002011-11-22T07:22:19.784-06:00One source, besides halacha biyedu'ah, is that...One source, besides halacha biyedu'ah, is that they claim ownership of many Jewish historical sites, such as the so-called kever dovid. Before we took over, the arabs didn't care much about Yerushalaim, so the Greek Orthodox Church had pretty much free rein in the city. Now they have become a trivial player, and like many small creatures, are vicious and venomous.great unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-11995751118918602252011-11-22T07:17:58.133-06:002011-11-22T07:17:58.133-06:00Interesting. I wonder where their particular viru...Interesting. I wonder where their particular virulent animosity comes from. And I wonder why nobody has brought that up in the many articles on the subject. But now that you mention it, I do remember that they do famously and explicitly hate and undermine us.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-14025066482784963452011-11-22T04:43:42.031-06:002011-11-22T04:43:42.031-06:00Re: your added commentThe Greek Orthodox church in...Re: your added comment<br>The Greek Orthodox church in Eretz Yisroel is already one of our virulent enemies, and their patriarch is an ardent supporter of the "palestinians" and of making Yerushalaim judenrein. <br><br>[Ironically, members of the local Greek Orthodox church participated in a "Rally for Israel" event here a few months ago, and I had pleasant conversations with several of them. In a rare moment of lucidity, I did not point out the aforementioned fact to them.] <br><br>While I do not personally think that it is appropriate to spit at them, when I was working in the Old City and they would walk by, they would look at me with contempt. I would in return give them a nasty smile. A smile that said, "Your time is coming, scum."<br><br>Based on how they would avert their eyes, I suspect that they understood. Or perhaps they just didn't want to look at a Jew.<br><br>I also direct your attention to the fact that the Jewish community in Germany also reacted to rising antisemitism with the utmost politeness and civility.great unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-38124873152942200432011-11-22T00:01:57.282-06:002011-11-22T00:01:57.282-06:00The comments showed me that I have to make another...The comments showed me that I have to make another point in the post, which I have done. Thank you.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-28271383054203166472011-11-21T18:59:12.408-06:002011-11-21T18:59:12.408-06:00Famous story about R' Yaakov Kamenitsky. Abou...Famous story about R' Yaakov Kamenitsky. About a week after he was niftar, a nun [in Monsey] stopped one of the baalei batim there and asked, "Did anything happen to the elderly Rabbi who lived here?" "He died a week ago," answered the baale bos, "how did you notice?"<br><br>The reply: "Because he was the only one of you who ever bothered to say 'Good Morning' to me and my sister nuns."<br><br>However, halacha l'ma'aseh, it seems to me that it must be done in a way that it implies respect for the person and not for the religion.great unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-80325812050188602322011-11-21T18:31:24.082-06:002011-11-21T18:31:24.082-06:00I'm talking about the cunning missionaries who...I'm talking about the cunning missionaries who come here to work the vineyards, full of kindness professing they only want to help and not convert when all along they are saying among themselves they're here for Jewish souls. They should be discouraged in a very big way and not "embraced" because they say they love Israel and support her with dollars. Let them support us from their homeland.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-50516062398938904022011-11-21T18:15:32.631-06:002011-11-21T18:15:32.631-06:00Yes, of course if someone is proselytizing they mu...Yes, of course if someone is proselytizing they must be stopped immediately and absolutely. I'm a big advocate of a free marketplace of ideas, but not an idea that only is effective with the ignorant and weak. That's just another application of wolf-like predation. But I don't think these people were doing any proselytizing. As you say, Yad L'Achim has the most experience in this field.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-3024635756331828592011-11-21T16:58:06.291-06:002011-11-21T16:58:06.291-06:00This is where things get dicey. Do we then spit o...This is where things get dicey. Do we then spit on Glenn Beck because he is good friends with Mike Evans and Pastor Hagee? Of course not! We set up a red line and publicize it to these very men. Come and live here as righteous gentiles. But there are two things that we will not allow. 1. We will not sell land here in Eretz Yisrael to non-Jews<br>2. Proselytizing in the public square of a predominantly Jewish city will get your table overturned and your literature thrown out. Do it a 2nd time and your Visa will be revoked, and you will be thrown out of the country. <br>Make these points clear and enforce them. Then let the chips lie where they may. If these men still want to be our friends, welcome them with friendship Spitting at them is prohibited. If the Medina will not revoke their Visa, other measures must be taken. I leave that in the hands of Yad L'achim. They know what to do under these circumstances. They know how to get the missionary to shape up on the straight an narrow.Dov Bar-Leibhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15915682856620634130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-25079082914658190552011-11-21T12:20:47.670-06:002011-11-21T12:20:47.670-06:00Spitting on priests is a chillul Hashem. Now spitt...Spitting on priests is a chillul Hashem. Now spitting on individuals who are openly proselytizing is a different matter. Maybe even rocks thrown are acceptable as they are actively attempting to destroy a Jewish soul.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com