tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post6185110667409091120..comments2024-03-19T23:03:01.685-05:00Comments on Beis Vaad L'Chachamim: Update on the Totally New QuestionEliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-91750896645439637242008-08-31T14:23:00.000-05:002008-08-31T14:23:00.000-05:00Nachum, without checking, I think it's clear i...Nachum, without checking, I think it's clear in OC 199:6 that an eved can be motzi where his chiyuv is equal. But devarim shbeikedusha are different: there, you need "venikdashti besoch adas bnei yisroel." And, as the Gemara in Gittin 23b makes clear, while a Ger is a Ben Yisrael for this din, an eved is not called a Ben Yisrael. Does this resolve the Chkira? I don't think so: How does Reb Elozor know that he's not called a Ben Yisrael? Probably because the fact that we distinguish him in mitzvos is a siman that he's essentially different.Barzilainoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-39236780551938280592008-08-31T02:30:00.000-05:002008-08-31T02:30:00.000-05:00i would think that one way to test this is to ask ...i would think that one way to test this is to ask if the eved / shifcha are motzi others at their mitzva level for brachot and other mitzvot.<br>if so, that's all we need to know and they should be mitztaref ; if not , why/ how not?nachumjnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-38247576278332469012008-08-30T21:37:00.000-05:002008-08-30T21:37:00.000-05:00Kamomos Eichus I dont know Lhalacha there the Same...Kamomos Eichus I dont know Lhalacha there the Same ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-34024810776845870252008-08-29T17:59:00.000-05:002008-08-29T17:59:00.000-05:00I feel like Reb Meir Don Plotzki be'shukah de&...I feel like Reb Meir Don Plotzki be'shukah de'Naharda'a.Barzilainoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-6290660017009791412008-08-29T17:52:00.000-05:002008-08-29T17:52:00.000-05:00OK, I have to get this in before Elul.GS wrote me ...OK, I have to get this in before Elul.<br><br>GS wrote me a note, and he made an excellent point. How can I assume that the equal chiyuv in mitzvos among Shifcha Kena'anis and Bas Yisrael indicates equivalence or parity? On the contrary: the fact that an Eved Kna'ani is only chayav ke'isha proves that he is not only quantitatively different, but qualitatively different. If so, the same would be true for a shifcha kna'anis: the fact that she is chayeves bemitzvos ke'isha proves nothing. Her chiyuv mitzvos does not indicate mitzvah-equality, or even similarity, to a bas yisrael.<br><br>And I then remembered the Gemara in Gittin 24b. Reb Elozor said that Atem gam Atem means that an eved is excluded, because "mah atem bnei yisroel, ahf shluchachem bnei yisroel." This shows that an eved, as opposed to a Ger, is not called a ben yisrael for purposes of this parsha. Debei Reb Yanai answered that an eved is kasher for shlichus, because the drasha is "mah atem bnei bris, ahf shluchachem bnei bris," and, as Rashi there says, an eved is a ben bris and chayav in mitzvos.<br><br>So we see clearly that an eved's chiyuv in mitzvos does not give him any parity with Yisrael: A ger is equal to a yisrael for most dinim in the torah. But an eved, even after milah and tvila, is not.<br><br>Thus: my assumption, and my son's assumption, that if they are equally chayav in mitzvos, they are the same, and can be mitztareif, is wrong. An eved is inherently different, and therefore not mitztareif, regardless of level of chiyuv mitzvos. Even if an Eved Kna'ani was chayav in all the mitzvos, he still wouldn't be mitztareif to a minyan, because he's not a Yisrael, as Reb Elazar said.<br><br>OK, now Elul can start.Barzilaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-16214996910299793662008-08-29T16:10:00.000-05:002008-08-29T16:10:00.000-05:00Mishlei 9:8, and let the chips fall where they may...Mishlei 9:8, and let the chips fall where they may.Barzilainoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-5737976890952149162008-08-29T15:48:00.000-05:002008-08-29T15:48:00.000-05:00Have you been nipping at the bug juice?Have you been nipping at the bug juice?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-13789998710487186032008-08-29T14:50:00.000-05:002008-08-29T14:50:00.000-05:00WOW I AM PROFOUNDLY SHAMED.WOW I AM PROFOUNDLY SHAMED.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com