tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post655708979354223630..comments2024-03-19T23:03:01.685-05:00Comments on Beis Vaad L'Chachamim: Vayeishev, Miketz: Why Yosef Remained in Prison Two Extra YearsEliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-5899668700052603202016-12-29T11:06:29.285-06:002016-12-29T11:06:29.285-06:00Nice pshat- not that the hishtadlus was wrong, but...Nice pshat- not that the hishtadlus was wrong, but that he did not adequately articulate to himself the secondary role of hishtadlus.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-3251182516016245852016-12-29T10:10:53.596-06:002016-12-29T10:10:53.596-06:00Sorry, I don't see how the Gemara that you quo...Sorry, I don't see how the Gemara that you quote sheds any light on the matter of Yosef. The Gemara talks about a person whose own action (or inaction) causes his own problems. Yosef's action of asking the sar hamashkim did not cause any problem, they simply did not help. So again, why should he be punished for that with a second year of (extra) imprisonment?<br /><br />Also, I'm not sure I understand Reb Moshe's explanation of the first year of punishment either. Reb Moshe seems to be saying that Yosef should not have taken any action at all, but should have simply sat back and done nothing at all. Yet if so, perhaps we should also say that he shouldn't have offered to interpret the dreams either? Or maybe he shouldn't have asked the two ministers why they were upset? Or maybe he should have done nothing at all, but just sat in his cell all day? How was he supposed to know exactly what to do and what not to do? However, if you look closely at Rashi, he does not say that Yosef was wrong to ask the sar hamashkim to help him. What he says is that he was wrong to put his trust in the sar hamashkim. Simply understood, what that means is that he was correct to take any action that offered a possibility of helping to get him out of jail - BUT while realizing all along that the success of any particular course of action depends only on Hashem. Because Yosef put his trust in the sar hamashkim instead of relying only on Hashem (while doing anything in his power to create a channel in the natural order for Hashem's brachos), therefore his action was unsuccessful and he was compelled to remain in the prison for extra time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-75121337649722687172016-12-28T22:09:18.934-06:002016-12-28T22:09:18.934-06:00I understand the problem you're raising in the...I understand the problem you're raising in the second paragraph. I'm going to add the original from Reb Moshe, and I'm going to expand on it a little from the Gemara at the end of Eizehu Neshech.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-1845037570140396952016-12-28T14:15:35.627-06:002016-12-28T14:15:35.627-06:00An interesting insight: The Lubavitcher Rebbe expl...An interesting insight: The Lubavitcher Rebbe explains that indeed, when Yosef told Pharoah to save up food from the years of plenty in order to be able to have food to eat during the years of famine, this was not Yosef making up his own suggestion, but rather, was part of the dream interpretation. This "suggestion" was in fact the interpretation of the detail in the dream that after the skinny cows came out of the river, they "stood alongside" the fat cows (before swallowing them up). Yosef told Pharoah that the meaning of this "standing alongside" was that even during the years of plenty the Egyptians should act as if the years of famine were already upon them, thus making sure to set aside and save up all of the surplus food (as one would do in times of hunger).<br /><br />As a separate matter, the second point you related above doesn't speak to me the way it seems to speak to you. Granted, one could not rely on a baal gaavah to do something without any self-interest. But why should requesting the favor deserve a punishment? It may be foolish, but it's not like running into the street, which is not just foolish but dangerous. According to seichel, Yosef's request was in no way dangerous and did not present any risk. If the sar hamashkim would not follow through (as he didn't), well, nothing gained but nothing lost either - he would still be imprisoned either way. So why was the request itself (separate to the lack of bitachon) deserving of a punishment? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com