tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post6669457457564657984..comments2024-03-28T23:20:49.777-05:00Comments on Beis Vaad L'Chachamim: Toldos, Breishis 25:22. Rivka Didn't Have Any Rabbis at Home To Talk To?Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-56189785432805568462020-11-26T15:30:26.388-06:002020-11-26T15:30:26.388-06:00That's a wonderful pshat. Yasher koach. I'...That's a wonderful pshat. Yasher koach. I'm putting it straight in.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-31666127348992855142020-11-26T15:22:53.311-06:002020-11-26T15:22:53.311-06:00I always thought she went to sh because when the M...I always thought she went to sh because when the Medrash says she went past a Beis Medrash it was obviously shem v'ever, at that moment. So she went straight in to ask. Yybturnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12475392082466169051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-84501900340640463612009-11-20T12:40:33.991-06:002009-11-20T12:40:33.991-06:00Anonymous 12:20, that's a nice pshat. I like ...Anonymous 12:20, that's a nice pshat. I like it, but it doesn't work with the Rashi. What I was writing about was how to understand what Chazal meant when they say that she went there davka to address her anguish at the strange behavior of her child/ren.Barzilaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-90354062146031194462009-11-20T12:20:32.783-06:002009-11-20T12:20:32.783-06:00SuggestionRivka recognized that when she went past...Suggestion<br>Rivka recognized that when she went past a bais avodah zora she was distressed as Eisav churned but whenshe went passed a place of G-d she was at ease<br>She must have reailized that despite the tzidkas of Yitzchok snd Avraham being in their presence did not releive her discomfort Its a simple thing that if x causes pain and y releives stress then she would go to y ie the bais medrash where she was not in pain There where she had menuchas hanefesh Hashem told her a nevuah Since she wasnt zocheh to this nevuah in Yitzchoks home she concluded that he wasnt zocheh to it either and thus kept it to herselfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-12784862159090974262009-11-20T02:34:54.631-06:002009-11-20T02:34:54.631-06:00This is a Toldos Shtikle toohttp://havolim.blogspo...This is a Toldos Shtikle too<br>http://havolim.blogspot.com/2009/04/learning-torah-in-place-of-bringing.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-81088488671897585472009-11-19T13:36:07.732-06:002009-11-19T13:36:07.732-06:00From LkwdGuy:"Funny that the Netziv needs a s...From LkwdGuy:<br>"Funny that the Netziv needs a shtikel torah to explain why Rivka didn't ask Yitzchok - in light of his comments regarding Yitzchok and Rivka's first meeting."<br><br>You're talking about the Netziv that says that unlike Avraham and Yaakov's unabashed relationships-of-equals with their wives, Rivka was so awed by her first sight of Yitchak davenning that she never came to think of herself as co-equal in the relationship, and would never disagree with or complain to her husband.<br><br>So you're suggesting that she didn't ask Yitzchak because she was afraid of him? Like the Gur Aryeh, that she was afraid that revealing her problem would shame her and highlight her inferiority?Barzilaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-23955724575854898272009-11-19T13:22:30.093-06:002009-11-19T13:22:30.093-06:00Funny thst the Netziv needs a shtikel torah to exp...Funny thst the Netziv needs a shtikel torah to explain why Rivka didn't ask Yitzchok - in light of his comments regarding Yitzchok and Rivka's first meeting.LkwdGuyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14676035514801548695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-37681229172175941132009-11-18T15:28:42.336-06:002009-11-18T15:28:42.336-06:00Excellent, Eli. I put it into the post. I never ...Excellent, Eli. I put it into the post. I never would have guessed that pshat would be in a Chazal. <br><br>You see how much Chazal respected ziknah, obviously consistent with the Tanna Kamma and Issi ben Yehuda in Kiddushin 32, but even according to Reb Yossi, pashtus, ziknah in a chacham is an added ma'alah.Barzilaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-33527498840274566242009-11-18T14:58:43.725-06:002009-11-18T14:58:43.725-06:00see Midrash Sechel-Tov, http://www.hebrewbooks.org...see Midrash Sechel-Tov, http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=33211&st=&pgnum=149<br><br>אע"פ שאברהם קיים הלכה אצל זקנים, ללמדך שכל המקבל פני זקן שבדור כאילו מקבל פני שכינה<br><br>This looks like answer #3, but the way he ends suggests something along your line - she looked for a way to approach Hashem herself.Elihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-2988364714953231812009-11-17T18:43:44.576-06:002009-11-17T18:43:44.576-06:00"Baruch Hashem, in the case I'm thinking ..."Baruch Hashem, in the case I'm thinking about . . ." You obviously have a particular person/family in mind. But I am only talking about what we see in TaNaCh. In the opening to Anna Karenina, Tolstoy declares, "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." So each family must solve its problems in its own waylAriellahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-28542476676240751512009-11-17T15:40:32.957-06:002009-11-17T15:40:32.957-06:00That's a good shittah to have until it becomes...That's a good shittah to have until it becomes nogei'ah to yourself. Then it becomes not such a good shittah to have. The best advice was unconditional love, contrary to one of the parents' inclination. Baruch Hashem, in the case I'm thinking about it worked out well, beyond the family's fondest hopes. Before that, there were many, many horrible days, "bein be'hakitz u'vein be'chalom."Barzilaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-51637762601758067532009-11-17T14:32:11.927-06:002009-11-17T14:32:11.927-06:00"I don't believe it. Parents ought to try..."I don't believe it. Parents ought to try to guide their children no matter how old they are."<br>You know what they say about horses and water. <br>'It's about time that we say "We see from Rivka that if your child is rotten, just write him off. Don't throw good money after bad."'<br><br>Actually, we see it from Avraham, as I said in the previous comment. He had reservations about sending off his son, but G-d told him to listen to Sarah. It seems women have better perception of children -- as we see from the first two Immahos. Of course, both those Immahos had the advantage of ruach hakodesh in these instances. Yitzchak, apparently, did not have the same revelation his wife had about the twins, and it seems she never told him. <br><br><br>Being too too soft is clearly considered bad parenting -- pointed out explicitly with respect to David and Adoniyahu.Ariellahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-77376194650368186472009-11-17T10:54:16.122-06:002009-11-17T10:54:16.122-06:00"he is responsible for himself at that point&..."he is responsible for himself at that point"<br><br>I don't believe it. Parents ought to try to guide their children no matter how old they are.<br><br>As for Rivka 'writing Eisav off", I like that idea. We're always deriving these syrupy, unctuous lessons from Tanach. It's about time that we say "We see from Rivka that if your child is rotten, just write him off. Don't throw good money after bad."Barzilaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-42625420745536344712009-11-17T10:38:52.162-06:002009-11-17T10:38:52.162-06:00"why didn't she use the kids at risk less..."why didn't she use the kids at risk lesson plan on Eisav? Maybe she did, but was rendered irrelevant by Yitzchak's counter influence."<br><br>No matter what a parent does, the child still chooses his own path. He was only supposed to have manifested his tarbus ra'a at the age of 15. That's 2 years past into what is regarded as the age of majority, so he is responsible for himself at that point. <br><br>The Biblical "project extreme" to solve the problem of "at risk" youth would seem most akin to "tough love." In most extreme cases -- the ben sorrer umoreh -- there is no viable solution. Avraham sent actually Yishmael away. But Yishmael, according to Chazal, was chozer betshuva and returned with a sense of his rightful place in relation to Yitzchak. Esav could never accept a secondary position. In a way he is llike Yerovom, who also had the potential for greatness but would tolerate being nothing less than number one. Such people can become the greatest of reshaim. <br><br>Perhaps Rivka recognized that trait in Esav and saw that there really was no hope. She seemed to have written him off, so to speak. Yitzchak would not have taken any action because he saw Esav as a good boy -- a bit high spirited perhaps, but he thought that could all go to the good.Ariellahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-61654201086760716642009-11-17T09:48:59.489-06:002009-11-17T09:48:59.489-06:00Of course you're right. I suppose two diametr...Of course you're right. I suppose two diametrically opposed but clear-headed kids are better than one that bounces back and forth between being an angel and being a devil. But in any case, I used Tosfos in Brachos to show that sometimes Hashem tells people what the future holds, and that despite her best efforts, Eisav was never going to be a yarei shamayim. Also, there's Rav Hirsch's idea that Avraham made the mistake of raising Eisav with a lesson plan more appropriate for a good child. But Rivka knew better: why didn't she use the kids at risk lesson plan on Eisav? Maybe she did, but was rendered irrelevant by Yitzchak's counter influence.Barzilaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-5321769578025629352009-11-17T07:32:18.960-06:002009-11-17T07:32:18.960-06:00Rivka set out lidrosh es Hamshem to find out why t...Rivka set out lidrosh es Hamshem to find out why there was causing the constant tugging in different directions. She did not yet know she was carrying twins with distinct directions. Apparently, she thought she was carrying a very confused child who desired both the beis medrash and avoda zara. It is the confusion, according to some, that bothered her. But while she was thinking it was one child, she may have gone to the beis medrash with the hope of reinforcing the netiya to Torah. It is only after she arrived that she learned there were 2.Ariellahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-12537734054787232942009-11-16T22:21:03.499-06:002009-11-16T22:21:03.499-06:00If it was, as you put it, a time out for meditatio...If it was, as you put it, a time out for meditation, the nevu'ah was that it had to be this way, sort of like Chizkiyahu and (Brachos 10a) his awareness of the fact that no matter what he would do, Menashe was going to be trouble (not because he was born bad, but just an awareness of what Menashe would ultimately choose to be, as Tosfos there says).Barzilaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-9448999610657996512009-11-16T20:43:24.188-06:002009-11-16T20:43:24.188-06:00Interesting idea. So this was more of a meditatio...Interesting idea. So this was more of a meditation than a consultation? i wonder . . .it may be possible to read it as her attempt to remedy the situation she found herself in by taking the "ashrey yoladeto" route as a spiritual prophylactic while the problematic child was still in utero.Ariellahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.com