tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post713677804928022179..comments2024-03-19T23:03:01.685-05:00Comments on Beis Vaad L'Chachamim: Ki Sisa, Shemos 32:10-11. Different Kinds of TefillaEliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-65391607501508441132011-02-24T11:31:22.906-06:002011-02-24T11:31:22.906-06:00Relax. Mention the word Zohar to an ashkenazi and ...Relax. Mention the word Zohar to an ashkenazi and he gets all nervous :-)<br><br>I just meant that if you look at the meforshim there on that midrash and see how they explain the words of Tefila, Rina, Bakasha, and Techina (all the one's you're already discussing now) maybe there you'll find discussion as to the difference. Often the MaHarZu is an amazing peirush for explaining the connection between the midrash and the pesukim...Danielhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04703845596227974473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-52890899058239162992011-02-23T07:54:48.267-06:002011-02-23T07:54:48.267-06:00Daniel, you've got to be kidding. I'm hav...Daniel, you've got to be kidding. I'm having enough trouble with two, I need the other eight???<br><br>And the Zohar is of limited use to me, because I am looking for something non-Sod oriented, something that speaks in the language of the Gemara and Medrash, not the language of the Zohar and kedomeh.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-4389432171471725042011-02-23T04:25:50.032-06:002011-02-23T04:25:50.032-06:00Have you looked further at the meforshim on the Mi...Have you looked further at the meforshim on the Midrash and Zohar regarding the 10 leshonot of Tefila? Alternately, the sefer שערים בתפלה .<br><br>Sorry I can't contribute anything further.Danielhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04703845596227974473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-62476374043946682362011-02-20T12:06:08.235-06:002011-02-20T12:06:08.235-06:00Ok, this is how I understand the Netziv. He says ...Ok, this is how I understand the Netziv. He says that every personal tefilla requires shvach in the beginning. But that's not true when we insert personal tefillos in shmoneh esrei, because it already has shvach in the beginning. But Moshe Rabbeinu never davenned a regular tefilla because he was on a madreiga of no-teva, so there was no concept of regular tefilla for daily needs. So when he did daven for some special need, he had to begin with Shevach. But here, Hashem told him that because his people fell, he was diminished as well, so he was no longer on a hanhaga nissis, so he had to insert the tefilla into a daily normal derech hateva tefilla, which begins with shevach as do all our shmoneh esrei tefillos that begin with avos gevuros and kedusha. Basically, Hashem told him not to do Be'usa- which meant shevach plus special event tefilla. He needed to do the derech hateva tefilla, which already has shevach in it.<br><br>So this only tells us the difference in form; tzlusa, daily and formal for normal needs, begins with shevach. Be'usa, special occasional needs, inserted into tzlusa. It doesn't really tell us what the essence of the difference is.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-18542969869434446982011-02-20T11:15:50.868-06:002011-02-20T11:15:50.868-06:00gu- I missed it. Thanks. I am going through it s...gu- I missed it. Thanks. I am going through it slowly- it is not a quick glance kind of piece, if any are. I'm still working on the Gemara in AZ.<br><br>Micha- on my way.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-83426178867457997122011-02-20T10:48:06.992-06:002011-02-20T10:48:06.992-06:00See my blog entry "Prayers & Requests&quo...See my blog entry "<a href="http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2008/01/prayers-and-requests.shtml" rel="nofollow">Prayers & Requests</a>".<br><br>Teaser:<br><i>The Targum Yonasan renders “becharbi uvqashti” [Bereishis 48:22] as “betzelosi uva’us-hi — with my prayers and my requests”. This is also in Bava Basra 123, “‘Charbi‘ — this is tefillah, ‘qashti‘ – this is baqashah [request].”<br><br>Based on this, R’ YB Soloveitchik explains...</i>michahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-8812581549867245522011-02-19T20:08:36.955-06:002011-02-19T20:08:36.955-06:00see the Netziv Shemos 32:11 [et seq. if you want t...see the Netziv Shemos 32:11 [et seq. if you want to go through the entire development of Moshe Rabbeinu's tefilos for Klal Yisroel - it goes on through Shemos 34] where he elaborates on the distinction.great unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-62509090212690538882011-02-19T19:49:01.505-06:002011-02-19T19:49:01.505-06:00The passuk in Yirmiah 7:16 isוְאַתָּה אַל-תִּתְפַּ...The passuk in Yirmiah 7:16 is<br><br>וְאַתָּה אַל-תִּתְפַּלֵּל בְּעַד-הָעָם הַזֶּה, וְאַל-תִּשָּׂא בַעֲדָם רִנָּה וּתְפִלָּה--וְאַל-תִּפְגַּע-בִּי, <br>and the Targum is<br><br>ואת לא תצלי על עמא הדין ולא תתחנן עליהון בבעו וצלו ולא תבעי מן קדמי<br><br>In Melachim 1 8:28, the passuk is<br>וּפָנִיתָ אֶל תְּפִלַּת עַבְדְּךָ וְאֶל תְּחִנָּתוֹ ה' אֱלֹקי: לִשְׁמֹעַ אֶל הָרִנָּה וְאֶל הַתְּפִלָּה אֲשֶׁר עַבְדְּךָ מִתְפַּלֵּל לְפָנֶיךָ הַיּוֹם , <br>and the Targum is<br><br>ותתפני לצלותא דעבדך ולבעותיה ה' אלוקי לקבלא צלותא ובעותא דעבדך מצלי קדמך יומא דין<br><br>So in Melachim, there seems to be a problem with switching the two by rina and tefilla. But remember, Targum on Nach is kind of like the Tosefta, in that many errors seem to have crept in.<br><br>But I believe that ultimately whatever answer we find will be based not on Targumim, but on careful reading of how Moshe davenned when told to avoid Be'usa and so he focused on Tze'lusa.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-64232034917089273342011-02-19T11:28:30.568-06:002011-02-19T11:28:30.568-06:00the pasuk of לשמוע אל הרנה ואל התפלה has always be...the pasuk of לשמוע אל הרנה ואל התפלה has always been tricky...<br><br>ברכות לא - יכול ישאל אדם צרכיו ואח"כ יתפלל כבר מפורש על ידי שלמה שנאמר (מלכים א ח) לשמוע אל הרנה ואל התפלה רנה זו תפלה תפלה זו בקשה<br>a very puzzling derasha that seems to literally switch the meanings...<br><br>the רנה part seems to be the most puzzling.. the gemara seems to understand רנה as an integral part of a beit knesset irrespective of davening... תניא אבא בנימין אומר אין תפלה של אדם נשמעת אלא בבית הכנסת שנאמר (מלכים א ח) לשמוע אל הרנה ואל התפלה במקום רנה שם תהא תפלה<br><br>what is the targum (sorry don't have any on hand) for the pasuk in yirmiya ואל תשא בעדם רנה ותפלה ואל תפגע בי ?Danielhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04703845596227974473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-21710918358592502512011-02-18T16:48:56.498-06:002011-02-18T16:48:56.498-06:00Good. I will try to get a copy and see it inside....Good. I will try to get a copy and see it inside. Yasher Kochacha.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-28352574255662624722011-02-18T16:46:46.025-06:002011-02-18T16:46:46.025-06:00The two appear together in Kaddish- tiskebeil tzlo...The two appear together in Kaddish- tiskebeil tzlos'hon uv'us'hon. I just saw a translation of Reb Yosef Ber's drashos on Davenning called Al Hatefilla. He quotes the Targum Yonasan on Shlomo Hamelech's tefilla that you mention, and distinguishes between the two as follows.<br><br>Tzlusa refers to Tefilla and Bakasha, while B'usa is She'eila and Drasha, as in Amar shomer asa boker...im t'va'ayun ba'ayu (Yeshaya 21:12). B'usa is like Ibaya le'hu in the Gemara. Thus, he contends that when we daven, we ask Hashem to grant our needs as well as to grant us the wisdom and understanding as to the proper way to serve Him. <br><br>Thus, Hashem was telling Moshe, now is not the time for trying to intellectualize why Klal Yisrael made the Eigel (e.g., as a stand-in for a human leader, etc.). Moshe took the cue and just poured out his heart as he made a request for his own needs (i.e., Moshe needed a people to lead.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com