tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post8474725328392749927..comments2024-03-19T23:03:01.685-05:00Comments on Beis Vaad L'Chachamim: Hamotzi on CheeriosEliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-32110450634096131332009-12-07T08:20:10.470-06:002009-12-07T08:20:10.470-06:00I can hear what you're saying re badly cooked ...I can hear what you're saying re badly cooked foods. In that context, it makes sense to say that since cooked meat is oleh, then even badly cooked meat or a lowly meatloaf is included. But that a lo plug would cover an entirely different method of preparation that yields a product that has its own specific identity is hard to believe. It's an issur chasnus, not an issur be'etzem; why on earth would we be so machmir? I don't hear it. Also, as I said, all the achronim talk about why the Gemara doesn't use the eino oleh to explain klayos. According to you, the answer would be simple. Klayos is wheat, and wheat is most often used to make bread, and bread is oleh.Barzilaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-24756668553318113452009-12-07T00:21:42.425-06:002009-12-07T00:21:42.425-06:00My guess is that I misremember hearing this in the...My guess is that I misremember hearing this in the name of the Taz. I didn't (can't?) look very thoroughly, but I don't see such a Taz after looking around in the expected places. Anyway, the general idea, that if a food requires bishul Yisroel then it's whole "min" does as well is out there. Apparently many people interpret Igros Moshe, Y"D vol. 4 no. 48, 5 that way (although this interpretation is debatable).<br><br>The basic concept here, whether it stems from the Taz or not, doesn't seem far-fetched at all to me, and is definitely one that I have heard voiced. What makes a potato chip something different from fresh, fried potatoes? Packaging, marketing, quality? At the other extreme, if my goyishe neighbor is a very bad cook, then can I eat any of the food he cooks, say, in my kitchen, simply because the product would not be suitable "oleh al shulcham melochim?"<br><br>Anyway, I glanced around a little for mareh mokomos after my initial search was frustrated, and I saw these two thoughts posted elsewhere by someone under the name "baki":<br><br>"[The reading of Igros Moshe, Y"D 4(48) often] ascribed to Rav Moshe is not written in the tshuva ... . Rav Reuvein, to whom the tshuva was written explains the reason to be that they [potato chips] themselves are oleh. The [controversial interpretation can be] attributed to Rav Yaakov Kamenetzky, who also considered them [i.e., chips] to have laws of bishul akum, in Emes Lyakov.<br><br>6. To say that a food can be considered to be oleh based on other ways that it may be cooked is not a new concept. See Pri Chadash and Aruch Hashulchan re. kurkevan. It need not mean that only one method that would be oleh would create a rule, but there may be an application of lo plug. Rav Belsky agreed to me in an oral conversation that such a concept may exist, but maintained that it would not apply here. That is a judgement call that can be debated."<br><br>I would only add that the "judgement call" aspect is almost unavoidable from my point of view. I simply don't know why one fried piece of potato should be patur while another is chayiv. I can think of some possible reasons (Americans call one a "chip" and not the other, etc.), but I don't trust that my own intuitions about this would match the Chazal's.<br><br>One thing I can say with certainty is that there are poskim who will say that potato chips require bishul and who will give this "whole min" explanation explicitly. And this was my original point, not al pi lamdus, but simply that this is the most common reason why bishul akum potato chips are avoided, by those who avoid them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-8399565594709501072009-12-04T14:34:11.561-06:002009-12-04T14:34:11.561-06:00I am not familiar with any such Taz. I could hear ...I am not familiar with any such Taz. I could hear such a svara re ne'echal kmos she'hu chay but when dried become inedible raw, like beans and peas. I don't know how he would learn the Gemara and the Rambam about Klayos, either. Klayos are wheat. Please send me a mareh makom. If he really says it, I will have to do teshuva for what I was thinking about such a shittah.Barzilaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-34848737848395978982009-12-04T13:25:22.362-06:002009-12-04T13:25:22.362-06:00I think the more common issue with potato chips is...I think the more common issue with potato chips is that if one holds, contrary a possible interpretation of the Aruch HaShulchan, that potatos are not inherently a peasant food, then one faces the machlokes between the Shach and Taz. The latter poskins that if a food (potato) is ever fit for a "state banquet" (which it surely is in its baked form, in many western countries today) then it requires the status of "bishul Yisroel" in any form (including the chip form).<br><br>I know that the common chassidishe mahalach is to follow the shitah of the Taz and not eat bishul akum potato chips for this reason, regardless of whether they are ever served at a state banquet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-1068772523191193012009-11-30T17:24:16.313-06:002009-11-30T17:24:16.313-06:00Matzos to Sefardim are like matza crackers to us.....Matzos to Sefardim are like matza crackers to us... That doesn't make any sense at all to me. But I think you would go by what it says on the box. The biggest size I found that calls itself crackers is http://www.taquitos.net/crackers/Rakusen_Matzo_Crackers , which is 2.5 on a side, and the reviewer calls them mini-matzos.Barzilaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-57351395007043665242009-11-30T16:21:12.491-06:002009-11-30T16:21:12.491-06:00Sefardim do not have this problem, but at what sta...Sefardim do not have this problem, but at what stage/size does a cracker become a matza, and vice versa?great unknownnoreply@blogger.com