tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post9168525468653489729..comments2024-03-28T23:20:49.777-05:00Comments on Beis Vaad L'Chachamim: Featherless Chickens: Eli, 1. Me, 0.Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-62488163929051745002015-09-20T00:14:02.448-05:002015-09-20T00:14:02.448-05:00I just realized something. The Marsham there talks...I just realized something. The Marsham there talks about among other things the evoz habar. Basically, the false reference was a wild goose chase.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-23783906580116527332015-09-19T23:49:23.545-05:002015-09-19T23:49:23.545-05:00Ok, I was just annoyed that the sefer you quoted a...Ok, I was just annoyed that the sefer you quoted asserted that the rule was generally accepted, when, as I said, the Chasam Sofer is not at all a proof, and the Maharsham, maybe he says it somewhere, but not there. BUT I agree that the Avnei Nezer would be mattir 100% on the basis of Bechoros. Like I said in the post, the Rogotchover is not a perfect raya,but also would lead one in that direction.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-12430017196588867552015-09-19T23:42:44.215-05:002015-09-19T23:42:44.215-05:00I checked.
The Chasam Sofer http://hebrewbooks.o...I checked. <br />The Chasam Sofer http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1839&st=&pgnum=52 does not say that. He just says that where the suspected tamei impregnated another bird, we can rely on the Gemara in Bechoros as far as the offspring, but not to be mattir the parent. And in the next paragraph he says that it is possible that the gemara in Bechoros applies only to four legged animals, not to birds. So the Chasam Sofer is simply not a raya at all.<br />I agree that the Avnei Nezer http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1345&st=&pgnum=72 would be mattir on the basis of Bechoros.<br />The Maharsham http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9193&st=&pgnum=152 does not talk about the sugya at all.<br />The Chesed L'avraham (as brought here http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=21379&st=&pgnum=54 wants to be mattir on the basis of Bechoros, However, the man who brings him http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=21379&st=&pgnum=62 disagrees and says that Bechoros only applies to animals, not birds.<br />Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-29504685739891916532015-09-19T20:04:49.957-05:002015-09-19T20:04:49.957-05:00I saw it in an article about the kashrus of three ...I saw it in an article about the kashrus of three birds here: <br /><br />http://www.kashrut.com/articles/ThreeBirds/#sdfootnote36sym<br /><br />The relevant paragraph states:<br /><br /><i>The Talmud (Bechorot 7a) mentions a rule known as the "hybridization principle." This principle states that kosher species cannot mate with non-kosher species; hence, the fact that a suspect species can interbreed with a known kosher species confirms the kosher status of the unknown species. In the Talmud it is not explicitly stated if this principle applies only to animals or to birds as well. Many authorities have been willing to rely on the hybridization principle to rule that a bird species is kosher even in the absence of a mesorah. Among them are: Chatam Sofer (Yoreh De`ah 74 ); Avnei Nezer (Yoreh De`ah 1:75:19-21 ); Maharsham, (Da'at Torah , Yoreh De`ah 82:3 ); Rav Shmuel Schneerson and Chesed L'Avraham (Tinyana, YD:22-2440 ). </i>Tal Benscharnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-31411840632628857632015-09-18T17:50:13.045-05:002015-09-18T17:50:13.045-05:00Yes, I seem to remember that Professor Cahaner tol...Yes, I seem to remember that Professor Cahaner told me that they can breed and produce fertile offspring with normal feathered chickens. I don't remember hearing that this is a siman of being the same breed. If you have any mm for that, I would dearly appreciate it!Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-9424016596551046022015-09-18T17:29:11.748-05:002015-09-18T17:29:11.748-05:00Question: can this featherless chicken breed with...Question: can this featherless chicken breed with regular chickens and produce offspring? <br /><br />IIRC, that is a test viewed by many poskim as to whether a bird is kosher.Tal Benscharnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-70994533036725692392015-09-12T21:53:18.056-05:002015-09-12T21:53:18.056-05:00I was explaining why it was entirely predictable (...I was explaining why it was entirely predictable (to me) that Rav Chaim would have paskened as he did. <br /><br />Your question as to why people don't recognize this (psychological?) factor and take it into consideration is a different matter. Shulemnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-71336628942301597592015-09-12T21:33:44.932-05:002015-09-12T21:33:44.932-05:00I knew nothing of the wrist watch issue. I just d...I knew nothing of the wrist watch issue. I just did a search and found that Reb Chaim, a couple years ago, was telling everyone that came for a bracha that they shouldn't wear them because they're beged isha. When showed pictures of gedolim like Rav Shach wearing them, he said that he too used to wear them until he heard reliable testimony that the Chazon Ish held they were assur and that his father also never wore one. Ok, I see what you're saying. I also found on Wikipedia that until the early twentieth century, wristwatches were indeed only worn by women, and that this changed when watches were used extensively by soldiers in WW I and the Boer war, and they continued wearing them when they came home, and that the British Horological Journal wrote in 1917 that "the wristlet watch was little used by the sterner sex before the war, but now is seen on the wrist of nearly every man in uniform and of many men in civilian attire." So you're saying that Reb Chaim's conservatism should be understood to be of an extremism that excludes it from the stream of halacha. I hear what you're saying. But it bothers me that people still go to him. Brachos, fine. But why do people go to him for psak halacha? Unless there was no hava amina in these people's minds that even Reb Chaim would asser, and he surprised them.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-35076346472029553112015-09-12T21:31:41.200-05:002015-09-12T21:31:41.200-05:00I believe that the wrist watch psak, which I linke...I believe that the wrist watch psak, which I linked to above, should be illustrative. Chazon Ish said 100 years ago that men;s wristwatches were begged isha (which at that time they very well might have been) and that same status applies to day, even though fashions have changed since 100 yrs ago and lo silbash would seem to be tied to contemporary practice.Shulemnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-672368917464888472015-09-12T21:24:59.967-05:002015-09-12T21:24:59.967-05:00http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com/2013/06/interesti...http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com/2013/06/interesting-psak-men-shouldnt-wear.htmlShulemnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-19184377445976334092015-09-12T20:46:14.147-05:002015-09-12T20:46:14.147-05:00Yes, if the offspring has enough differences to qu...Yes, if the offspring has enough differences to qualify it as a different "species," and Reb Chaim defines it. It definitely does not go down well, but I can't see any other way of explaining his psak. If you've seen his seforim, you know that not only he knows everything, but it's not at all superficial, he has amkus and lomdus as well. I cannot believe he just assered on the principle of chodosh ossur min hatorah, especially when we're just talking about a chicken, not hashkofo.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-33573043175102655392015-09-12T20:31:37.736-05:002015-09-12T20:31:37.736-05:00If I understand you correctly, you're saying t...If I understand you correctly, you're saying that according to halacha, a kosher bird (for instance) that mated with another kosher bird (of the same species) can give birth to something that's a different species?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Shulemnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-80915018863074805552015-09-12T20:26:07.614-05:002015-09-12T20:26:07.614-05:00Shavuah Tov.
My question was not whether Rav Chaim...Shavuah Tov.<br />My question was not whether Rav Chaim has ever been mattir anything, but where he has conceded that change was OK and that we don;t have to assur something simply because it was done differently in the past or can potentially be mattir it because social realities have changed.<br /><br />Example of the latter being men's wristwatches, despite the CI's supposedly having said 100 yers ago that (at that time) they were considered begged isha.Shulemnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-7511163061852019982015-09-10T12:30:13.926-05:002015-09-10T12:30:13.926-05:00In דרך אמונה הל' שביעית פרק ד הלכה א he is mat...In דרך אמונה הל' שביעית פרק ד הלכה א he is mattir vinegar that has bugs not visible to the eye, using the logic that the Torah doesn't forbid that which the eye can't see. He also throws in a line "תדע דהטבעיים אומרים שכל האויר מלא תולעים קטנים וא"כ אסור לשאוף אויר"! He is then מכשיר a ספר תורה that has a פסול in a letter that can only be seen with a magnifying glass. And he also says that the כשרות of an אתרוג is to be determined without a magnifying glass.Abbie Jakubovichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04811049134423509097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-75113514740681301352015-09-10T09:43:19.022-05:002015-09-10T09:43:19.022-05:00Ok, I want to tell you what I'm thinking.
1....Ok, I want to tell you what I'm thinking. <br /><br />1. The absence of feathers means it is a different species, even if it is a trivial mutation. As Shulem said, feathers on a bird mean more than hair in people. A bird without feathers is different enough to require its own mesora: not because it might be a doreis, but because of the requirement of mesora even when we know it's not a doreis.<br /><br />2. Although in Yoreh Deah 79:2 we pasken that טהורה שילדה כמין טמאה מותרת שהיוצא מן הטמא טמא ומן הטהור טהור, so even if it were an ostrich born from a chicken it would be kosher, it must be that Reb Chaim is machmir like Tosfos in Niddah 50b that this rule does not apply to oviparous animals.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-55774205280387386682015-09-10T09:37:00.169-05:002015-09-10T09:37:00.169-05:00I hear. But I would say, yes. Here's an exam...I hear. But I would say, yes. Here's an example. He was mattir to be shoeil tzrachim on Rosh HaShannah, not like the Zohar and the Gra that say we cannot ask for personal needs, only for Kvod Malchus Shamayim.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-45467755883623613372015-09-10T09:20:39.649-05:002015-09-10T09:20:39.649-05:00You thought Rav Chaim would be mattir something, s...You thought Rav Chaim would be mattir something, saying change was OK?<br /><br />Any examples come to mind?<br /><br />Shulemnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-44994285961066082292015-09-10T09:14:34.647-05:002015-09-10T09:14:34.647-05:00I suppose R' Chaim would say that people are p...I suppose R' Chaim would say that people are people, even without a mesora.<br />Not so with birds.<br /><br />Shulemnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-65900349926339110562015-09-09T22:43:46.391-05:002015-09-09T22:43:46.391-05:00It's a real mystery. The Rosh Yeshiva that br...It's a real mystery. The Rosh Yeshiva that brought the question told him clearly it comes from a normal chicken that often has fewer feathers on its neck, from a breed called the New Hampshire, that the accepted psak in Litteh was that it was included in the mesora of chickens, and it was just inbred. I'm sure the question was asked in the full expectation that RCK would be mattir. It is apparently a healthy breed not subject to common kashrus issues or illnesses, and would be a boon to the industry and the consumer. I just don't know what to say.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-36594095952641940262015-09-09T22:22:16.730-05:002015-09-09T22:22:16.730-05:00I don't understand R' Chaim's p'sa...I don't understand R' Chaim's p'sak. The featherless chicken was achieved through selective breeding from an ancestor that we already know is kosher. Why is it any worse than most commercial chicken that has been selectively bred to produce fatter chickens?Abbie Jakubovichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04811049134423509097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6453787673476195995.post-60306188326339669582015-09-09T15:38:29.692-05:002015-09-09T15:38:29.692-05:00So should we think about whether people with autos...So should we think about whether people with autosomal recessive hypotrichosis are a different min and need a mesora? I mean this seriously. If not having feathers matters enough to make a sofek whether it's a chicken, the equivalent by people should make a sofek whether they have a din of Odom, so there might be a din of shocheiv im beheimo.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com