Among the shailos that were brought to me on Yomtov was the following. Someone's wife made potato kugel on the second day of Rosh Hashannah, from scratch. The shailah as presented was,
1. Is this techina and therefore assur.
2. If it is techina, and it was assur, what do we do with the kugel.
The concept that making kugel involves tochein surprised several of my friends. Some did not know that tochein is assur on yomtov, others did not realize that grating potatoes is tochein, and others thought that since freshly made potato kugel tastes better, it's muttar even if it is tochein, just as grinding spices is muttar under those circumstances.
I'd be happy to hear what you would have said.
Reaction:
Someone sent this, from a website that does psakim from Rav Ovadia Yosef, apparently from his son, Rav Yitzchak Yosef.
לאור מה שלמדנו, נוכל ללמוד לגבי הכנת קציצות ירק (לטקס) ביום טוב, שהאשה לוקחת תפוחי אדמה, וגוררת אותם על ידי מורג חרוץ (פומפיה), ואחר כך עושה מהם עיסה ומטגנת קציצות. לכאורה היה נראה שאסור לעשות כן ביום טוב, משום שגרירת הירקות על ידי כלי המיוחד לכך, דומה למלאכת טוחן האסורה בשבת, ומלאכה זו אסורה גם ביום טוב, שהרי היא בכלל המלאכות הבאות לפני לישת הבצק, כאשר טוחנים את החטים לעשות מהן קמח. אולם למעשה מותר לגרור ביום טוב ירקות לצורך טיגון וכדומה, מפני שהיקלו חכמים בדבר במגררת פרטית שיש בבתים, מפני שאין דרך לגרור הרבה ירקות במגררת כזו, אלא מעט לפי מה שיש בו צורך ליום טוב עצמו. ומאחר ואי אפשר לגרור את הירקות מראש, שהרי טעמם מתקלקל לאחר יום, לכן יש להקל בדבר.'
I don't follow this logic. Maybe it's true that if you grate the potatoes before yomtov they'll lose flavor or turn black. But you could have made the kugel and put it into the refrigerator and warmed it up on yomtov. The difference between fresh baked and refrigerated two days ago and warmed up my be significant to some, but I find it hard to believe it makes it "ee efshar la'asos erev yomtov."
UPDATE
I spoke to my father in law, Harav Reuven Feinstein. He holds that it is assur to grate potatoes for a kugel on Yomtov. His psak came just in time, because I was beginning to doubt my earlier decision - perhaps the hetter we use by spices is subjective, and if so, would apply where the person believes the quality would be enhanced by freshness.
NEXT UPDATE
In the comments, you will see that Avrohom brings from Rav SB Cohen and Rav Yirmiahu Kaganoff that they are mattir.
Additionally, here is what the second most chashuveh person in Ma'aleh Adumim wrote.
I responded as follows:
Final Update
Reb Dovid Feinstein was mattir without any hestation. Fresh food is better and grinding before יום טוב is not an option.
Mutar lechatchila without a shinui. Period.
Finished.
Reaction:
Someone sent this, from a website that does psakim from Rav Ovadia Yosef, apparently from his son, Rav Yitzchak Yosef.
לאור מה שלמדנו, נוכל ללמוד לגבי הכנת קציצות ירק (לטקס) ביום טוב, שהאשה לוקחת תפוחי אדמה, וגוררת אותם על ידי מורג חרוץ (פומפיה), ואחר כך עושה מהם עיסה ומטגנת קציצות. לכאורה היה נראה שאסור לעשות כן ביום טוב, משום שגרירת הירקות על ידי כלי המיוחד לכך, דומה למלאכת טוחן האסורה בשבת, ומלאכה זו אסורה גם ביום טוב, שהרי היא בכלל המלאכות הבאות לפני לישת הבצק, כאשר טוחנים את החטים לעשות מהן קמח. אולם למעשה מותר לגרור ביום טוב ירקות לצורך טיגון וכדומה, מפני שהיקלו חכמים בדבר במגררת פרטית שיש בבתים, מפני שאין דרך לגרור הרבה ירקות במגררת כזו, אלא מעט לפי מה שיש בו צורך ליום טוב עצמו. ומאחר ואי אפשר לגרור את הירקות מראש, שהרי טעמם מתקלקל לאחר יום, לכן יש להקל בדבר.'
I don't follow this logic. Maybe it's true that if you grate the potatoes before yomtov they'll lose flavor or turn black. But you could have made the kugel and put it into the refrigerator and warmed it up on yomtov. The difference between fresh baked and refrigerated two days ago and warmed up my be significant to some, but I find it hard to believe it makes it "ee efshar la'asos erev yomtov."
UPDATE
I spoke to my father in law, Harav Reuven Feinstein. He holds that it is assur to grate potatoes for a kugel on Yomtov. His psak came just in time, because I was beginning to doubt my earlier decision - perhaps the hetter we use by spices is subjective, and if so, would apply where the person believes the quality would be enhanced by freshness.
NEXT UPDATE
In the comments, you will see that Avrohom brings from Rav SB Cohen and Rav Yirmiahu Kaganoff that they are mattir.
Additionally, here is what the second most chashuveh person in Ma'aleh Adumim wrote.
b'mchilat kvod torato please ask/ discuss with rav reuvein
i am old enough to remember that in washington heights my sainted great
-grandmother and all the holy offsprungs, and the whole kehilla,made
chopped liver every shabbat morning with the hock-messer.
my father confirms the details and adds that when he was a young yeshiva
student and protested the 'tochen" , rav breur pointed to MB who overtly
allows a hock messer on shabbat
the glorious resultant mush was much finer than anything that could be
done with a potato grater
[ the ingredients were NOT all cooked [ R"L some used raw onions ],
which should not affect our halacha anyway ]
also , i insist that halacha does not assume a refrigerator
if we can allow mortaring pepper corns what is the problem with potatoes ?
I responded as follows:
I agree. Reb Moshe agrees too. In OC 4 he says he holds like the Aruch Hashulchan who disagrees with the CA (and MB) who hold that a hackmesser is a kli of techina. ON THE OTHER HAND, he does hold that a ribaizen grater is derech techina.
Worse, the Beis Yosef's pshat in the Rambam specifically limits techina on peiros to cases where you're cooking/baking it afterwards, which applies here.
Bottom line, all that matters is whether it's true that fresh grated is better. Now let's agree that grated two days ago, even covered with plastic so it doesn't oxidize, is not as good as fresh grated. But why not grate it and bake it before yomtov? Is there a real difference between fresh baked (or if you're one of those, fresh fried,) and cooked two days ago? Or in your case, mister superior, cooked yesterday?
I don't know. I guess it's better straight out of the oven.
But is that minor difference significant enough?
My opinion has changed. I think fresh out of the oven is far better, and would be mattir techina now. I can see that others would disagree.
Final Update
Reb Dovid Feinstein was mattir without any hestation. Fresh food is better and grinding before יום טוב is not an option.
Mutar lechatchila without a shinui. Period.
Finished.
So if a person did grate the potatoes, even if it is assur, is it permitted to eat the food?
ReplyDeleteWith a quick google search, I saw this article which although it only quotes the section partially, seems to say that Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen permits grating potatoes on yom tov in his sefer:
MBY 504:1-4 Grinding spices and other things on Yom Tov (abridged)
MBY 504:1-4 Grinding spices and other things on Yom Tov (abridged)
Question: Is ‘tochain’/grinding one of the permissible melachos for food preparation on Yom Tov or not? Answer: That’s easy… if you have “MBY Archives”:
MBY 495:1-4 A General Introduction to Melacha on Yom Tov: “The Mechaber (R’ Yosef Karo, “author” of the Shulchan Aruch) writes that the only melachos associated with ‘ochel nefesh’ that are permitted on Yom Tov are those that are typically done at home in close proximity to the consumption of the food - not those that are done in the field, threshing floor, granary etc. The latter is typically done much in advance and in large quantities, and the food is then generally stored away for future use. This second category includes melachos such as harvesting (‘kotzair’), grinding (‘tochein’), squeezing (‘sochait’) and trapping (‘tzod’). These melachos are not permitted on Yom Tov according to all opinions!”
Back to today’s lesson: Thus we see that ‘tochain’ – in general (which is usually associated with grain) - is excluded from permissibility on Yom Tov, based upon the two main criteria required: timing and quantity. Now let’s talk about lenient exceptions! Related to the act of ‘tochain’ (grinding) are other acts which also breaking down herbs and roots into smaller particles, such as ‘dicha’ (pounding) and ‘ketisha’ (crushing). The Gemara and Shulchan Aruch contain lengthy treatments of the question of doing these actions on Yom Tov to spices, such as salt and pepper. True, grain can be ground well before the day of use, and it will not suffer in quality. Furthermore, one always needs flour (n.p.i.) on Yom Tov, so he should make sure to grind some before Yom Tov begins. With spices, however, one could argue that it is more flavorful when it is freshly ground! Even if that argument could be refuted on the grounds (n.p.i.) that pounding the spices one day earlier will not adversely affect its taste, one could retort that he doesn’t necessarily decide until Yom Tov what his menu will be and thus cannot know beforehand which spices he will need!
Because of these considerations, the halacha is more lenient with regard to pounding pepper and other spices, permitting it in the normal manner on Yom Tov. With salt, the halacha is a bit more strict, permitting it but with a minor ‘shinui’ (change from the normal manner.) This is because, compared to other spices, salt has aspects of stringency and aspects of leniency: stringency, because salt does not lose its potency with time, and leniency, because it does not grow from the ground as a plant (i.e. and hence, only a minor shinui - not a major one - is required.) What is considered to be a minor ‘shinui’? “One may use a regular grinding utensil for this, but the grinding itself must be performed in an unusual manner, in one of the following ways: 1) By inverting the utensil from its usual position, e.g. holding the grater upside down; or 2) By grinding the food onto a tablecloth or countertop, not into a plate or bowl, as is usual.” (Quoted from The Laws of Yom Tov by Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen, Chap. 8, p. 76)
Though we have spoken mostly about grain and spices in this lesson, the principles we have learned apply to the grating or mashing of fruits and vegetables as well. To illustrate, we will quote from Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen’s sefer again, Ibid., pp. 79-80:
“The following is a partial listing of foods which may be ground in their normal manner on Yom Tov, even with a grater or similar utensil: apples, bananas, matzos, potatoes and vegetables. The following is a partial listing of foods which may be ground in an unusual manner: cheese, horseradish, pepper.”
Also see here (from an article by Rabbi Kaganoff)
ReplyDeleteItems that will become useless if ground or chopped before Yom Tov may be ground or chopped on Yom Tov in the way that they would usually be ground or chopped on a weekday. Therefore, one may mash avocado and banana, grate potatoes and onions, and dice salad and apples on Yom Tov the way one would on a weekday (Piskei Teshuvos 504:3).
Thank you! Coincidentally, Rabbi Kaganoff, a contemporary in NIRC, visited us a few weeks ago. Next time he stops by, we'll have to discuss this.
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