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Showing posts with label Massei. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Massei. Show all posts

Thursday, July 19, 2012

Massei, Bamidbar 35:19. The Goel HaDam: Vigilantism and the Court

Bamidbar 35:19  גואל הדם, הוא ימית את-הרוצח

Under the rule of Goel HaDam, if a man kills as a result of insufficient caution (akin to involuntary manslaughter), relatives of the victim are not prevented from killing their relative's killer.

The question is, to what degree and in what sense is this act extra-judicial.  By extra-judicial I mean that this act is not sanctioned by the Beis Din, but only not interfered with, or not punished.  


There is a machlokes between the Ketzos (2:1) and the Tumim whether the rule of Goel HaDam applies today, namely, without a determination of law by a court that is empowered to judge capital cases.

First the Xos brings the Tumim's opinion that the legal entitlement of the Goel HaDam occurs only upon a decision of the Beis Din to so empower him.  The Tumim bases his opinion on the words of the Rambam in 1 Rotzei'ach 5:  
רוצח שהרג בזדון--אין ממיתין אותו העדים ולא הרואים אותו, עד שיבואו לבית דין וידינוהו למיתה:  שנאמר "ולא ימות הרוצח, עד עומדו לפני העדה למשפט" (במדבר לה,יב).  והוא הדין לכל מחוייבי מיתת בית דין שעברו ועשו, שאין ממיתין אותן עד שייגמר דינם בבית דין.
where the Rambam says that a man who killed with intent is not killed until he the Beis Din finds him liable for capital punishment.

The Ktzos argues and says no such empowerment is necessary; being a Goel HaDam is an extra-judicial status.  The Rambam the Tumim brought is not talking about the Go'el Hadam, it is talking about court administered punishment.  (He also notes that the Rambam and Rashi argue about the extent of the law of Goel HaDam:  Rashi applies it even to inadvertant but negligent manslaughter, while the Rambam requires some degree of criminal negligence.)  The Ktzos does, however, agree that it is possible that a court's involvement is necessary simply to establish the facts of the case- על כל פנים בעינן קבלת עדים להודיע אמיתת הדבר שהרגו הרוצח.

Reb Shmuel Rozovsky, in his shiurim on Makkos, disagrees with the Xos' interpretation of the Tumim.  It is possible that the Tumim is saying that Goel HaDam is a MITZVA only when the court determines that the killing was intentional but a procedural barrier to capital punishment prevents justice from being done.  The Tumim might agree with the Ketzos that even in other cases, and even without a finding by the court, the Goel HaDam would not be guilty of a capital crime if he killed the Rotzei'ach.  Pattur- yes, maybe even a Reshus, but Mitzva- no.

This reminds us of the Mishna L'Melech (1 Rotzei'ach 15):
הרואה רודף אחר חבירו להורגו כו' ויכול להציל ולא הציל ה"ז ביטל מצות עשה כו'. נסתפקתי ברוצח בשגגה שיש רשות לגואל הדם להורגו אם נתאמץ הרוצח והרג לגואל הדם אם נהרג עליו. ומסתברא דאינו נהרג עליו וסמך לדברי זמרי דאמרינן [סנהדרין פ"ב.] נהפך זמרי והרג לפנחס אין נהרג עליו ועדיין אין בידי ראיה מכרחת לזה. וכן נסתפקתי ברודף אחר חבירו להורגו וכן רודף אחר הערוה שניתן להצילו בנפשו אם נתאמץ הרודף והרג את המציל אם נהרג עליו. ונראה דבאלו נהרג עליו דדוקא גבי זמרי דליכא מצוה גבי פנחס אלא רשות אמרינן נהפך זמרי והרגו לפנחס אינו נהרג אבל רודף אחר חבירו או אחר הערוה דאיכא מצוה להצילו וכמ"ש רבינו אם הרג רודף למציל נהרג עליו. וכן יש לדקדק מדברי רי"ו ז"ל במישרים נל"א ח"ב שכתב ואם הבועל נהפך והרגו לקנאי אפילו בשעת מעשה אינו נהרג כי רודף היה הקנאי כי אינו מצוה להרגו אלא רשות בעלמא ע"כ. הרי שתלה הדבר לפי שאינו מצוה להורגו ודוק. ורוצח בשגגה דינו כדין בועל ארמית שהרי רשות היא ביד גואל הדם ולא מצוה ודוק:

that discusses the killer's right of self defense against the Go'el HaDam.  There is another category of sins that trigger the right of a Kanna'i to kill the malefactor (Sanhedrin 81b).  These include the example in last week's parsha of Pinchas killing Zimri during his act of publicly consorting with Kozbi, a pagan woman. (הגונב את הקסוה והמקלל בקוסם והבועל ארמית קנאין פוגעין)  In this latter category, the malefactor is entitled to defend his life from the Kana'i (such that if he would know that he is threatened by the kana'i, and he raised a gun and said he was going to kill him if he didn't desist from his kana'us, and witnesses told him that to defend himself would be a capital sin, and he killed the threatening kana'i, he would be held legally blameless.)  Obviously, no such right of self defense exists where a court-appointed executioner is punishing a sinner.


Clearly, then, the rule of Kana'im is totally extra-judicial.  What about Goel Hadam?  Does the Rotzei'ach have the right of self defense?  Will the court interfere if he hires mercenaries, or enlists his friends, and creates a militia to defend him from the Goel Hadam?  And does the rule of Goel Hadam pertain in out times, when our Batei Din are no longer empowered to judge capital cases?  


The Mishna L'Melech says that Goel HaDam is like the Kanai ONLY where the Goel HaDam is merely PERMITTED to kill, where it is a reshus- namely, where he is allowed to kill someone who is guilty only of involuntary manslaughter.  But where the Goel HaDam's act is a mitzva- where the man killed intentionally but with only one witness or without legal warning- his target has no legal right of self defense.  If he protected himself by killing the Goel HaDam, he has committed a capital offense.

So it seems that the Xos makes a general rule of Reshus for every Goel HaDam.  According to Reb Shmuel Rozovsky, the Tumim agrees with the Ketzos but holds that the additional status of Mitzva vests only after a finding by the Beis Din.

In light of all of this, I find Reb Meir Simcha's words interesting.  Reb Meir Simcha (8 Chovel U'Mazik 12) says:
אולם התבוננתי כי כ״ז טעות, דכל זמן שלא העידו עליו עדים אסור להורגו אף לגואל הדם, ודוקא מזיד דיתחייב בב״ד ע״י מעשה זו פטור, אבל שוגג דאינו חייב בב״ד, רק שרשות ביד גואל הדם א״כ כ״ז דלא העידו עליו עדים אסור לגואל הדם להורגו..... ועיין בקצות ס'ק ב׳ ודוק :

It appears that Reb Meir Simcha learns that where the Goel has a mitzva, namely, where the killing was in some way criminal, then the Goel can proceed without any involvement of the Beis Din.  Only where the killing was inadvertent (although negligent) must the Goel wait for permission from Beis Din.  The logic is that in the former case, where it's a mitzva, that mitzva exists irrespective of Beis Din.  Where it is only a reshus, the weak status of reshus requires creation by a Beis Din.  Mitzva is between man and Hashem.  Reshus is a matter of the relationships within society, and it is a creation of the Beis Din.

So I want to point out something interesting about the characterization of the act of the Goel as respectively a Reshus or a Mitzva.

  • In Makkos 10b, Rav Huna says that if the Goel finds the Rotzeiach outside the Ir Miklat and kills him, he is Pattur.  אמר רב הונא רוצח שגלה לעיר מקלט ומצאו גואל הדם והרגו פטור.  The implication is that he is merely pattur, but he has no mitzva.  
  • The Mishna on 11b brings a Machlokes Reb Akiva and Reb Yosi HaGlili as to whether the Goel that finds the Rotzeiach outside the Ir Miklat has a mitzva or a reshus to kill him. רוצח שיצא חוץ לתחום ומצאו גואל הדם רבי יוסי הגלילי אומר מצוה ביד גואל הדם ורשות ביד כל אדם רבי עקיבא אומר רשות ביד גואל הדם וכל אדם חייבין עליו .  
  • It appears that Rav Huna is consistent only with Reb Akiva's opinion, which is impossible, because the Gemara would have noted that.  

The Divrei Yechezkel (which I am reprinting pursuant to my father zatzal's will if the twit who thinks he owns the rights doesn't create too many problems) in 23:8 and slightly differently in the Chazon Ish in Likutim 23 to Makkos 10b both say that Rav Huna's expression Pattur only applies where the Rotzei'ach fled to the Ir Miklat before any decision by the Beis Din.  The Machlokes Reb Akiva and Reb Yosi HaGlili is where Beis Din already paskened Galus on the Rotzei'ach, and then he left the Ir Miklat.



Here is the Divrei Yechezkel, albeit messed up by the OCR. Good luck figuring it out.

איברא יקישיא זי מעיקרא ליחא לפמ״ש הרמכ״ס (פ״ה ממצח  הל״מ) וז״ל רוצח כשגגה שהרגו גואל הים חין לחחום  מיד מקלטו פמור שנאמר. ולו אין משפע מוח אחי ההורגו כדרך  קייס שיכנס לעיר מקלמ או שהרגו כחזירחו מם השנים ששוממן
 איחי, נכנס לעיר מקלמי ייצא חון לחחימה כזמן הר״ז החיר עצמי  למיחה ורשוח לגואל הדס להרגו יאם הרגי כל אדם אק חייבין עליי  שנאמר אין לו דם עכ״ל והמחכאר מזה דחרי דיני איכא כגואל הדם  א) קידם שקלטו עיר מקלעו אסור לגואל הדס להורגו אלא ראם  הרגו פטור מקרא דולו אק משפט מומ ט ימס לבכו וכו יאס הרגי  כל אדם מייבק עליו דהך פטורא דכי ימס לככו בגואל הדס לבד קאי  ב) לאמר שיצא מגבול עיר מקלטו בזדון הר״ז המיר עצמו למיהה  ורשוה כיד גואל הדם להורגו וגס כל אדם אין מייגק מליו מקרא  דאין לו דם והוא מדברי הסוספמא (פ״כ דמכוה) יעו״ש וככר  נחכאר אצלנו כמק״א לבאר יהם שני מנים נפרדים יקודם שהגיס  לערי מקלט לא הוחר דמו של הרוצח כלל אלא יהגואל הרס פטור  מעונש לכד וכעין אנוס הוא מקרא דכי יחס לבכי אכל עוכר כלא  תרצח ומשו״ה כל אדם ההורגו חייכ וזהו נלמד מהסוגיא  דמטח  ודף י׳ ע״כ) דשקיל וטרי שם אם גואל הדם נהרג מליו אמנם  לאחר שהגיע לעיר מקלעי ייצא הוחר דמו מצד היציאה כמזיד ושוכ  אק כאן איסור רציחה כלל ופליגי כזה ריה״ג יר״ע אם מציה כגואל  הים אי רשיח ועכ״פ לט״ע הוחר דמו שאין כאן איסור רציחה כלל  ואפילו לכל אדם דאסורק להורגו אינו כלל מחורח רציחה יעיק  ריסב״א כמכוח (דף י״כ) ומשמה כל אדם אק נהרגין מליו ומה״ס  פריד אהך דינא דרב הונא (שם מ< י׳) ממחניחיז דגואל הדם נהרג  סליו קודם שהגיע לעיר מקלעו ולא קשי׳ ליה מפלוגח׳ דריה״ג ורכנן  ועיי״ש כפי׳ ר״ח וכריםכ״א כשם הרמ״ה והרא״ה וכ״ז מוכרח  מםיגיית הש״ס (שם) מכמה ראייח ואכמ׳׳ל, ולפ״ז ל״ש לומר  דמצח בשוגג יפער מחורח קלב״מ כתה דיש עליו דין מיחה מ״י  גואל הדם טון דגואל הדס אסור להרגו קודם שנכנס לעיר מקלעו  אלא דאם הרגי פסיר מתורח אנוס נמצא דאין זה קלכ״מ דדוקא  רשיח להרגו פוטר מדין קלכ״מ ומה דהוחר דמו אח״כ כשיוצא מעיר  מקלעו הוא חיוב חדש שנעשה ע״י היציאה שאח״כ למ״ד מצוה מצוה  ולמ״ו רשוח רשוח ואס ישכר כלים בשמח יציאחו מערי מקלט אז  שייך שפיר קלכ״מ.




Here is the Chazon Ish, which I mostly fixed up. The Chazon Ish distinguishes between a Hora'a of Beis Din and a Psak of Beis Din.

וחלוקה הב׳ שפגעו גוה״ד קדם פסק דין, ובזה אפשר דמודה  ר״ה דנהרג עליו, שהרי עדיין לא נתברר שהוא בר  גלות, והרבה תנאים בעינן לחיוב גלות כגון דקדוק אופן ההריגה דלמא היה קרוב לאונס ודלמא יסרו לדבר מצוה, ודלמא פרכס,  ודלמא אין עדים בדבר ועוד כיו״ב  שצריך פסק ב״ד, ואף אם יתברר אח״כ שהיה בר גלות לא מפטר גוה״ד דבשעה שהרגו  עדיין לאו בר גלות הוא ולאו בר קטלא הוא כדאמר לעיל ה׳ אי,  אכל בר״מ פ״ה ה״י כתב דאחד ההורגו בדרך קדם שיכנס לעיר מקלט, משמע אפי׳ קדם גמר דין, והדבר מוכח בגמ׳ סנהדרין  מ׳׳ע א׳ [כמש״כ חזו״א חו״מ סי׳ י״ז] והיינו דמזיד דלא סגי  לי׳ בגלות ג״נ לא עדיף משוגג דאין גוה״ד נהרג עליו כמש״כ  הר״מ פ״ו מה׳ רוצח ה״ה, והגה יואב הרגו קודם שהעמיד את אבנר לפני  ב״ד לדונו דביד גוה״ד להרגו ולמפטר, ואם איתא  דבשוגג כה״ג נהרג עליו אין כאן ילפותא למפטר גוה״ד ברוצח במזיד,  אלא ע״כ ר״ה דרריש לקרא ולו אין משפט מות [דברים י״ט ף]  קאי אפי׳ קדם גמר דין דלענין למפטר גוה״ד סגי בהוראה  וכשיתברר אחר כן שהיה בר גלות גוה״ד פטור ומזה ילפינן גם  מזיד, ונראה לפ״ז דר״ה סבר ורוצח שיצא במזיו ומצאו גוה״ד והרגו פטור דלא כר״א דאמר לק׳ י״ב א׳ דגם מצא במזיד צריך פסק בית דין להתיר את גואל הדס להרגו שהרי צריך  בירור שמא הוא תוך התחוס ושמא היה בשוגג, וכיון לצריך פסק דין לא סגי במה שיתברר אחר כך אלא קדם גמר דין  עדיין לאו בר קטלא הוא, והכי פסק רב שם בגמ׳, אבל ר״ה  נראה דלא ס״ל הכי, דלא מסתבר שיהא בתחילתו קל הריגתו יותר מיצא במזיד.



Masei: Living Donation of Organs and Ir Miklat

(With some changes, this is a re-post of last year's post on this subject.  I also incorporated the comments that came in last time.)


What is the extent of the moral and halachic obligation to save another's life?  The question is far too broad and nuanced to even discuss in this forum.  I only want to point out a not well known paragraph from Reb Meir Simcha in his Ohr Samei'ach on this topic.  Every word in Reb Meir Simcha is a gem, and this one is particularly interesting and deserves wider dissemination.


The issue at hand is whether one is allowed to endanger his life to save someone else.  Assuming he is allowed to do so, is he obligated to do so?  Does the relative degree of danger to himself and the other person matter?  There has to be some leeway here; an absolute prohibition would mean there were no soldiers, no policemen,  no doctors in infectious disease clinics, and no firefighters.  As you can see, the numerous permutations require careful attention.   One current question is whether a person may donate a kidney or part of a liver to someone who would otherwise die.  There is definitely a danger involved in living donation.  It is allowed?  Is it justified?  Is it a mitzvah?  Is it an obligation?  For helpful overviews and a survey of the various opinions, both modern and ancient, see here and here.  There is a wonderful group, called HODS- the Halachic Organ Donor Society- that has a very interesting and informative web site dedicated to this and many other issues.  I should really have linked to HODS' home page, but the video on the home page is so hard to watch, and so beautiful and poignant at the same time, that I wanted to warn you before linking to it.

As always, halachic questions of this nature should be directed to an Orthodox Rabbi of stature.  Basic rabbinic training certainly does not guarantee the expertise to deal with such questions.


Back to Reb Meir Simcha.  The Gemara says that a person who must run to the Ir Miklat, that is, a person who had killed someone inadvertently, may never leave until the Kohen Gadol dies.  There is absolutely no circumstance that would allow him to leave.  As the Mishna in Makkos 11b says, 
אינו יוצא לא לעדות מצוה ולא לעדות ממון ולא לעדות נפשות ואפי' ישראל צריכים לו ואפי' שר צבא ישראל כיואב בן צרויה אינו יוצא משם לעולם

He does not leave to testify about the new Moon, and not for civil testimony, and not to testify in capital cases, and even if the Jewish People need him, even if he is a General like Yoav ben Tzruyah, he never leaves.


Reb Meir Simcha addresses the question, how can it be that Pikuach Nefesh wouldn't allow temporary abatement of the punishment of Galus?  If he is needed to lead the army in war, if he is needed to testify in a capital case, if he is a doctor, nothing at all allows him out, despite the deaths that will likely result from this refusal.  What happened to the primacy of human life?  In fact, I would say that the best possible thing for this man to do that would rectify his negligent taking of a life is to go and save lives!  Why doesn't the Torah allow this?  


Reb Meir Simcha (in 7 Rotzei'ach 8) answers that all these reasons would not affect the vengeful relative's right to kill him.  The Goel Hadam will still have the right to kill this man as soon as he walks out of the Ir Miklat.  Since leaving endangers him, he is not allowed to leave his safe refuge; A man may not endanger his life in order to save others.  (I would not be too quick to assume that this is based on Reb Akiva in Bava Metzia 62a, חייך קודמין, because Reb Meir Simcha makes no reference to that Gemara at all.)  This is particularly interesting in light of the fact that the ability and the motivation of the Goel Hadam to do what he is allowed to do will vary with the time and place and circumstances.  But Reb Meir Simcha says that the mere fact that the Goel Hadam has the right to kill this man with impunity prohibits this man from leaving the Ir Miklat, even if leaving would enable him to save another man's life.


Without in any way deprecating Reb Meirs Simcha's teretz, the fact remains that, as he himself cites extensively, many poskim say that one may, perhaps even must, endanger himself to save another's life, and his teretz is of no use in explaining how the others would learn the Mishna in Makkos.  (Rav Shternbuch, in Taam VaDaas, argues that the whole concept of war means that you endanger yourself for the benefit of the people, and it doesn't make any sense to say that it is the danger of the Goel HaDam that precludes a general from leaving the Ir Miklat in order to lead his army in war.  I'm not impressed with his raya, but there it is.)  A certain Isha Chashuva immediately answered that the experience of Galus has to be a simulacrum of death, of leaving everything behind and not being able to return.  If the person can come back for any reason at all, then it's not at all like being dead.   (I once said that the reason women tend to get headaches is because vestigial organs are more prone to derangement.  While I still think this is true, my rebbitzen has made it clear that it does not apply to her.)

Here is our teretz.


Galus is a form of chiyuv missah.  Chiyuv missah obviously trumps V'chai bahem.  Proof- first of all, the fact that you kill the guy is proof enough.  More- pikuach nefesh is docheh shabbos, but a mechallel Shabbos is chayav missah.  One might say that this is because Rachmana afkerei l'damei.  Or one might say that the chiyuv missa is doche pikuach nefesh.  If you say the latter, then you have a pshat in the Mishna in Makkos.  In any case, one thing is certain: you don't say אז מען דארף דעם גנב - נעמט מען אים פון די תליה אראפ

Comments:

Efrayim said...


Your answer is creative, but some might find it hard to believe that one person's chiyuv misah can set aside another person's pikuach nefesh. Is someone who is chayav misah now exempt from saving othes' lives? Perhaps the explanation is that since there is a real chiyuv misah - if he leaves intentionallly, anyone is permitted to kill him - leaving is not viewed as doubtful misah, but as actual misah. This is comparable to the principle of "kim leih b'd'rabbah mineih" where there is theoretical chiyuv missah even when there is no chiyuv missah applied.

b said...

I didn't say that a chayav missa is not obligated in pikuach nefesh. I said that when the chiyuv missa is at odds with the pikuach nefesh, chiyuv missa is stonger. Here, galus in the Ir Miklat is the equivalent of Missa, leaving is like avoiding a chiyuv missa, and pikuach nefesh is not docheh chiyuv missa. 

I hear how you are using Reish Lakish from Ksuvos 34b. Very nice. Creative- and ironic, too. It's diametrically opposed to my teretz. I am saying that galus is missa, and missa is docheh pikuach nefesh. You are saying that galus is galus, and leaving galus is the din of missa, and the mitzva of pikuach nefesh cannot possibly generate a din missa on someone.
Daniel said...

I'm asking because I don't know. Is there in fact a chiyuv on the rotzeach to go to an ir miklat? or just an option? what would be the chiyuv? ושמרתם לנפשותיכם or ונס אל אחת הערכים האל וחי? what if he genuinely feels that he wants pure justice of death by go'el hadam?

2- Doesn't ואם אין מחני נא מספרך and אשר הערה למות נפשו (ישעיה נג show that you can give up your life for someone else? ואת"ל Moshe saving the entire nation is different, what about avraham going to save Lot. Or the din of קנאים פוגעים בו? it seems to me, where the danger is a function of the person's expressing that which is proper is in his eyes it's always permissibale to give your life for that which you feel is Truth. Even in instances of certain death, let alone only risk.
b said...

He is required to go to the Ir Miklat, he doesn't have the option of staying home and taking the risk. First Rambam in 5 Rotzei'ach- כל ההורג בשגגה גולה ממדינה שהרג בה לערי מקלט ומצות עשה להגלותו שנאמר וישב בה עד מות הכהן הגדול. והוזהרו בית דין שלא יקחו כופר מן הרוצח בשגגה כדי לישב בעירו שנאמר ולא תקחו כופר לנוס אל עיר מקלטו

I don't know how to explain your examples. But here's what I'm thinking:

Perhaps self endangerment is a form of charity, of giving away what is yours on behalf of another, and there are limits to tzedaka. There's a rule of chomesh, that you only give up to 20% of your money to tzedaka. If so, as soon as we remove the parties from a tzedaka relationship, all these discussions will not apply. Perhaps certain relationships create responsibility, and when you are responsible for someone, you are allowed and maybe obligated to take a risk on his behalf.
Daniel said...

The Rambam only shows that beis din is obligated להגלותו, not that he has a chiyuv to be גולה.

I'm a little puzzled how כופר לנוס אל עיר מקלטו means "to allow him to stay home" but regardless, again my point the same, the issur is on beis din, not the rotzeach.
Efrayim said...

Re your 1027 response - I agree with you that you must say that a chiyuv missah is stronger than the mitzvah of v'chai bahem of the person who chayav misah; if I recall correctly there is a story of a person who actually carried out the 4 types of misas beis din on himself. The nafkah minah would be that one who is chayav misah and has the opportunity to escape is not required to, and perhaps is not even allowed to (assuming he knows he is guilty). However, a strong, perhaps compelling case can be made that even if you are correct in your assertion that golus is a form of chiyuv misa, that does not now exempt the rotzeiach b'shogeg from the obligations he has because he is physically alive. Why is he less subject to the mitzvah of v'chai bahem as applied to others than he is in the mitzvos of wearing tefillin, learning Torah, et al.? Is someone who is on his way to being executed now patur from saving others' lives (assuming he can escape beis din's hands long enough to do so)?

Re Daniel's point - if anything the chomesh halachah is a question on this whole discussion You are not allowed to give up more than 20%/25% of your assets to perform a one-time mitzvas aseh. Acharonim understand that as also applying to your emotional strength - e.g., you are not required to push yourself to your breaking point in order to fulfill the chiyuv achilas matzah. (Obviously this is a principle which requires in-depth elaboration.) How then can you be allowed to risk your life? I don't believe the answer can be as broad as the one Daniel suggests since the meforshim give all sorts of technical parameters under which the rule of "kanaim pogim bo" can apply. It's not carte blanche for risking your life for whatever you consider worthwhile.
b said...

OK, Efrayim, I agree that my teretz is far from impregnable. But I thought that it was, as you said, creative enough to count as a nice lomdus. I'm not arguing, but I do want to emphasize that I anticipated the problem when I said that if his chiyuv missa is רחמנא אפקריה לדמיה, the teretz doesn't begin.

As for your kashe on chomesh- please note that I was making the tzutshtell to chomesh in Reb Meir Simcha, who holds that it is assur to endanger yourself, which would comport with the idea of Chomesh and Tzedaka.
great unknown said...

Daniel at 3:30
la'nus is not a verb but a noun: the one required to escape.
Daniel said...
TGU- saw the rashi now. thank you very much.
b said...

By the way, Chomesh is a takana derabanan, and there are many exceptions to its application. Still, the concept, the idea that underlies the Chachamim in Usha, may apply.
great unknown said...

How can you say that chomesh is a takana d'rabanan? Everyone knows that it is a halacha l'Moshe miSinai. Not to drag this out too far, see the Shnos Eliyahu on the first mishna in Peah, d"h gemilus chassadim, in the Pirush Ha'Aruch.
Intriguingly, the Pirush Ha'Kotzor says the opposite.
Daniel said...

Re Efraim: the maamar chazal of אל יבזבז יותר מחומש , regardless of it's source, is not a strict ISSUR in the way you (or yes, probably 99% of the world) are thinking but rather a general guidleine for going through life and mode of conduct (as the original meaning of הלכה/הליכה means).

How can it be "ASSUR" to give more than a chomesh when i have the right to be מפקיר כל נכסיי if I want and live a life of an עני?...

Anonymous said...

. אגרות משה, יו"ד, א סימן קמג 

ובדבר אם תקנת אושא שאל יבזבז יותר מחומש הוא איסור או רק עצה טובה... והנה לא כתב הרמב"ם הדין דאל יבזבז יותר מחומש אלא בסוף הלכות ערכין ולא בצדקה בהלכות מתנות עניים ובש"ע מפורש שהמחבר סובר דבידו משגת מחוייב ליתן כפי צורך העניים אף שהוא יותר מחומש משמע שסובר בדעת הרמב"ם שכיון שדין התורה הוא שיתן כפי צורך העניים לא תקנו רבנן לאסור וגם לא לעצה טובה בצדקה רק להקדיש אסרו... עכ"פ הרמ"א שכתב ואל יבזבז יותר מחומש בצדקה פליג וסובר שאסור וכדמוכח מהא דמר עוקבא ודעת הרמב"ם והמחבר צ"ע. עכ"פ למעשה אין לבזבז יותר מחומש אם לא לחשש פקוח נפש. 

.מנחת יצחק, ה סימן לד 

והנה בתשובת אגרות משה שם, בנה יסודו על דברי הרמ"א שם (יו"ד סי' רמ"ט סעי' א'), שכתב ואל יבזבז יותר מחומש עיי"ש. ולענ"ד אין ראיה דבא לחלוק על המחבר, דאם רצונו לחלוק, היה כותב, וי"א, כנודע דרכו, וביותר ממה שמצוין שם המקור, (ב"י בשם הגמ' פרק נערה שנתפתתה), ואף שאין הציון מהרמ"א עצמו, אבל כן ראיתי בדרכי משה השלם, שעל דברי המחבר בש"ע, עד חומש מצוה מן המובחר כו', כתב למקור הדברים, בפ' נערה שנתפתתה א"ר אילעי באושא התקינו המבזבז אל יבזבז יותר מחומש, שמא יצטרך לבריות עיין שם, ש"מ דלא בא לחלוק על דברי המחבר, אלא למלאות דבריו, דבאין ידו משגת אסור לבזבז, אבל בידו משגת, י"ל דמודה לדברי המחבר. 
וא"כ להלכה למעשה, כמו בזמן הזה, שבכל עת יש עניים נצרכים לפנינו, וביותר עניי א"י, שפיר יכול מי שידו משגת לבזבז יותר מחומש, ומצוה קעביד

b said...

I saw the שנות אליהו and the פירוש הארוך, and I see that the former implies derabanan, while the latter says clearly, based on a Yerushalmi, that what we call תקנת אושא is really a Halacha L'Moshe Mi'Sinai that Chazal publicized at Usha.

Are you sure the שנות אליהו and the פירוש הארוך are both from the Gaon?

Efrayim said...
This has nothing to do with the discussion here, but the Mishnah Brurah brings this down in the sugya of chomesh, and it's inyanah d'yoma, so maybe the distinguished blog editor or someone else can answer this question. Based on the story of Bar Kamtza the Magen Avraham suggests that when there is "eimas hamalchus" one is permitted to violate even a lo saseh (i.e., offering a korban with a mum). The Mishnah Brurah says that other acharonim question this ruling since the rabanan's concern was actually about pikuach nefesh, which is certainly docheh any ordinary lo saseh. However, if you look at the Maharatz Chiyus on Gittin where the story of Bar Kamtzah is, he not only approvingly cites this Magen Avraham, but says that the reason the rabanan suggested Bar Kamtzah be killed was because he was a rodef! If he was a rodef, how can we infer anything to a case of ordinary "eimas hamalchus"?

great unknown said...

I was just thinking about a similar issue this morning: in America, so far, we don't have a clue as to what aimas malchus is, other than from history. Unless you live in Chicago, where the police routinely beat up and torture people; murders have yet to be revealed.

The din of rodef is defense against personal [or communal] sakanas nefashos; so is aimas malchus.

re: the Shnos Eliyahu
Other than the pirushim on kabbalah and trigonometry, we have very little actually written by the GR"A; most of it was transcribed by his talmidim [rather chasuv in their own right], but some was actually reviewed by the GR"A. See the haskama of R' Chaim Volozhiner to the Shnos Eliyahu.

As to the stira in the two versions, we find the same in the gemora by amora'im who just came out of shiur.

l'Inyanainu, see also the Gevuros Ari on Ta'anis 24a. However, see the Ahavas Chesed, 19:4 and the footnote there. Also, perek 20. Note that the Chofetz Chayim is not misyaches at all to the GR"A in the pirush ha'aruch.

A very relevant issue concerns how much of support for descendants who are learning can be counted against ma'aser and chomesh. I seem to recall from the Chasam Sofer that for a time period originally contracted at the time of the chasuna, none of it counts; after that, fifty percent.

I suspect the age of the child counts also; the minhag seems to be not to follow the strict d'Oraysa or even the more generous takanas Usha on that. However, I suspect that it would be very good from a chinuch standpoint to kick out sons as soon as they become bar mitzvah.
From a certain perspective, that is done by many in Eretz Yisroel, where they are shipped out the yeshiva dorms at the earliest possible moment.

b said...

Efrayim:

Have you ever wondered about policy in Halacha? For example: Rahm Emanuel is associated with an Orthodox synagogue. When the recession began, he asked his rabbi whether it was allowed to participate in a conference call on Rosh Hashanna to make decisions about what to do to prevent a depression. The Rabbi said that he may, because telephone usage is most likely derabanan, but more importantly, a depression would destabilize nations, bring hunger and famine, and result in many deaths and wars.

Certainly true. But one might argue that these results are not proximate, and halacha deals with direct, not gramma of gramma of gramma.

Or you could say that it is delusional to say there's a difference between pikuach nefesh of a choleh in front of you, or pikuach nefesh of cholim de'alma when you know for a fact that cholim will eventually appear.

You realize that this hetter would be a blanket hetter for kohanim to go to medical school, and chillul shabbos for medical students, and even working on shabbos when you're afraid that if you don't make a parnassa, you might get poor and not be able to afford medical help. And so on ad absurdum. So only Gedolim mamash can pasken on such questions.

In this case, Chazal are telling us that Eimas Malchus is Pikuach Nefesh. It may not look like it, it may not be immediate, but antagonizing the government is extremely dangerous, and so you are docheh shabbos as if it were pikuach nefesh mamosh, and if a guy is massering to the government, even on a matter that seems relatively minor, he is a rodef and chayav missah.

b said...

and Efrayim- I certainly don't need children and fools visiting this site. You are obviously neither. If you have any friends that you think might add something to our discussions, they would be welcome. I don't guarantee a gem every week, but occasionally something interesting does come up, either in the posts or in the comments.

Efrayim said...

Good, well-explained answer. Iy"h I'll come at least as long as I have bein hazmanim.

great unknown said...

There's a shu"t Chasam Sofer which deals with and thoroughly disposes of any possible heter for a Kohain to attend medical school based on future pikuach nefesh. Please enlighten me as to any gedolai poskim who do promulgate such a heter.

BTW, didn't Rahm's Rabbi also sign a letter in support of SSM? Obviously a godol with breite plaitzes.

great unknown said...

Which puts me in mind of,
Hog butcher for the world...
City of the breite plaitzes

b said...

I know the Chasam Sofer and of course Reb Moshe as well, that there's no chiyuv to learn medicine so that some day you will be able to save lives. By the way, the same thing would be mattir student autopsies, because only with that kind of hands on training will surgeons and physicians be able to save lives. We all know how that argument fared in Eretz Yisrael. 

The only posek I know that is mattir is the apocryphal posek at YU that so many MO doctors are someich on. Unbelievable what I've heard in the "name" of this alleged posek- wholesale chillul shabbos during rounds as a student and so forth.

But I still say that the concept of dichui on the basis of policy and planning is valid if applied by poskim of a certain stature. I realize that many of the reasons advanced for prohibiting chillul for getting a rebbe to daven or to get a kamei'a would apply here, too. That's a subject I'm working on, and will post on if I can find a parsha it's relevant to.

b said...

From a letter I received from Dr. Nachum J:

true , that is what rav moshe said
but he also told me, now that you will be a doctor , you HAVE to do that,
you don’t have the right to say that ” I’m better off in learning”
[ he also knew me well enough to know that I am NOT better off in learning]
so I work 30 hrs a week, that’s enough
a 60/40 split works fine for me

Tuesday, July 26, 2011

Masei. Blindness and Mitzvos; Long Walks; and Gaaiveh! Gaaiveh! Gaaiveh!

My mother was in the hospital this week and I didn't have the yishuv hadaas to properly organize the reactions I received via email to the previous posts about the chareidim and the draft.  I intend to do it as soon as I can.


For the time being, here are three matters that I wanted to write about.

I
The Gemara (Bava Kama 87b, Kiddushin 31) brings a machlokes Reb Yehuda and Chachamim whether a blind person is obligated to follow the mitzvos of the Torah.  Reb Yehuda holds he is not.  It is from our parsha of Ir Miklat, the City of Refuge, that Reb Yehuda derives his opinion.  (Chukim = dinim, Dinim = missas beis din, missas beis din = galus, and by galus it says  בלא ראות, and בלא ראות teaches us פרט לסומא, so if no galus, no missas beis din, if no missas beis din no chukim, and chukim = all mitzvos.)

Most poskim say that we hold like the Chachamim, that blind people are obligated to do mitzvos like everyone else, but some pasken like Reb Yehuda.  (Shaar Tziyun 53:41 and Minchas Chinuch 2:25)  The minhag (Mishna Berura 139:13) is that blind people can get an aliya to the Torah (even among the Sfardim, as the Tzitz Eliezer brings in vol. 11 12:2 from the Chida.)  The Mechaber, Reb Yosef Karo, paskens that a blind man may not be given an aliyah.  As I said, the minhag among both ashkenazim and sefardim has moved away from that opinion.  But I saw that someone brings that in Tzfas, where Reb Yosef Karo lived, the minhag to this day is that they do not call a blind man to the Torah.  In Tzfas, where the Mechaber lived, he is still the Mara D'Asra, and they still follow his opinion.

The idea that a great posek should be honored in his city, that the city should follow his psak even if normative halacha moves away from that opinion (to the extent that his psak would be called טעה בשיקול הדעת because the סוגיא דעלמא is not like him), is not unique to Tzfas.
  • There is, of course, the first Mishna in Reb Eliezer D'Milah, where the town of Rebbi Eliezer followed his halachos lekula even when all the rest of Klal Yisrael paskened not like Rebbi Eliezer.  
  • In the city of Reb Yosi Haglili, they used to eat chicken with milk.   (Chulin 116a)
  • A modern day example:  when people agitated for an Eiruv in Chicago, the Bnei Torah refused to become involved, because Rav Aharon Soloveichik was strongly opposed to the Eiruv, in that he was chosheish for the Rambam.  After Reb Aharon was niftar, the grass roots movement gained momentum, and of course the Chasidim and Baalei Batim didn't care about Reb Aharon's chumra, and so there are eiruvin in Chicago now.  But most Bnei Torah still do not carry, lichvod Harav Soloveichik, although the eiruv is kosher according to almost all poskim.

The Rashba (Tshuvos 1:253) says this:
אם היה רב אחד במקומם ולימדם - הן הולכים אחר דבריו. זהו חלוקת ארץ ישראל ובבל ב'תרבא דאיתרא' דאלו אוסרין ואלו מתירין ואוכלין... ואף על פי שהוא חלב דאורייתא לדברי בני בבל.
...ומן הדרך הזה, כל שנהגו לעשות כל מעשיהם על פי אחד מגדולי הפוסקים - במקום שנהגו לעשות כל מעשיהם על פי הלכות הרב אלפסי זכרונו לברכה, ובמקומות שנהגו לעשות כל מעשיהם על פי חיבור הרמב"ם ז"ל - והרי עשו אלו הגדולים כרבם.

although I have to admit that elsewhere (Tshuvos 1:1090) , he limits application of this rule:

שאלת, בארצות הללו נהגו להכשיר חתם סופר ועד (signed by the sofer and one witness) כדברי הרב אלפסי ז"ל וכבר פשט איסור בכל הארץ. מה יעשה בהן לאותן שנעשו כבר, כי אם נאסור יבוא קלקול גדול בדבר, ואפילו באותן שלא נשאו, משום פרוצות ומשום צנועות. וכיון שיש להם על מי שיסמוכו נכשיר הבאים ממדינה אחרת.
תשובה, אף על פי שרבינו יצחק הזקן ז"ל אוסר, ואנו כך דעתנו נוטה, מכל מקום כבר נהגו שם על פי הרב אלפסי ז"ל ומקומו של הרב הוא. וכל מי שנוהג על פיו שם אפשר כי אפילו בבאים שם היה מותר. וה"נ במקומו של רבי יוסי היו אוכלין בשר עוף בחלב... ולא חשו להם חכמים לפי שנהגו על פי רבם. ומכל מקום טוב הוא להזהירם שלא יהו נוהגים כן מכאן ולהבא.


Tshuvos Haran (48)-
בני מקום אחד חייבין לנהוג כדברי גדוליהן, ואפילו היכא דרבים חלוקין עליהם, כדאמרינן (שבת קל, א) במקומו של רבי אליעזר היו כורתים עצים לעשות פחמים לעשות ברזל, וכל שכן כשגדוליהם מחמירים בדבר אחד, שאין לאחד מאנשי מקומם להקל בדבר.       

and Tshuvos Rivash (256),
עוד שאלת: במקום שנהגו היתר, אם ראוי למחות באותו המנהג ולאסור אותו לגמרי? נראה שראוי לבטל המנהג ההוא, כדאמרינן בפרק קמא דראש השנה (טו, ב): 'כי נהגו במקום אסורא, מי שבקינן להו'? ואם היה דבר זה מחלוקת קדומה בין החכמים ז"ל, זה אוסר וזה מתיר, ועשו כדברי האחד להקל מפני שהיה רבם, או שחכמי המקום נטו אחר דעתו, בכגון זה מניחין אותם על מנהגם, אע"פ שיש הרבה מקומות שנהגו לאסור. כההיא דמגרומתא דרב ושמואל בפרק קמא דחולין (יח, ב); ותרבא דאייתרא בפרק אלו טרפות (נ, א)... וכההיא דלוי...וכמו שהעלמתי עין בסרקסט"ה, במה שנהגו היתר הנאה במגע כותי ביין... אבל הדברים האסורין בלי מחלוקת, שנהגו בהן היתר קצת מקומות מפני שלא ידעו שהן אסורים, זה מנהג טעות הוא, ואינו כלום. 


For a fascinating discussion of the deep significance of a Mara D'Asra, see Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhoffer's discussion here.
One paragraph to whet your interest-
Reb Tzadok draws an analogy to medicines. Different patients suffering dissimilar illnesses at distinct times require different - often opposite - Refu'as HaGuf medications. Similarly, different members of Am Yisroel in dissimilar places at distinct times in history require different - often opposite - Refu'as HaNefesh medications. Hashem created a world full of variety and differences.  (....)  The variations in Halacha correspond to the variations among human beings. (A Kabbalistic explanation of these variations along the lines of chesed and gevurah is cited in the Hakdama to Tanya). The inhabitants of the town of Rabbi Eliezer who cut down trees on Shabbos to make coals to forge knives to perform a Bris Mila that day (according to his opinion in Shabbos 130a that machshirei mila are docheh Shabbos) were therefore fulfilling a mitzva and Retzon Hashem. Their Mara D'Asra, whom Hashem had provided them as a Rofeh HaNefesh, had made such a determination. Inhabitants of any other locality who would engage in the same activity, however, would be liable to capital punishment!


II
The Gemara in Bava Basra 122a (אלא לקרובה ורחוקה) strongly implies that the closer a tribe's land was to Yerushalayim, the better the portion.  This is how the Rashbam learns the Gemara- because it is closer to the Kedusha of Yerushalayim, and farther from the dangerous borders.  I once heard from Reb Moshe that one can say the contrary as well- that the farther from Yerushalayim the better, because then you have to walk farther on the Shalosh Regalim, and for every step there is schar halicha (e.g., the woman Reb Yochanan talked to in Sotah 22a).  You are placed in a situation where you have to do more hachana.  I never understood how he could say that, when the pashtus of the Gemara in Bava Basra is directly opposite.  I understand that drush is more flexible, but how can you say the exact opposite of the Gemara?  I then saw that the Chasam Sofer here says exactly like Reb Moshe.
מיהו לולא דברי הרשב"ם היה אפשר לומר דרחוק היה זכות יותר דאיכא שכר פסיעות לילך למקדש 
 This is not the first time I saw a remarkable correlation between the way those two gedolim thought.


III
There's a news item going around about Rav Shteinman's nixing a new Beis Yaakov because it catered to frum elitism (original article in Hebrew is here.)  I want to remind everyone that around a year and a half ago, Rav Steinman expressed this opinion very forcefully and unequivocally here, or http://www.kikarhashabat.co.il/video.php?vid=28285-20044- where someone came to him about whether to let in some kids whose home is more "open," and Rav Shteinman listens calmly, and discusses it in soft tones, until...  you have to watch it.  See from 3.00 for the fireworks.  Poor Rav Steinman.  It must be hard to be sane in an insane world.  In another example- Haaretz, an agenda-driven newspaper, has no credibility, but in this case they happened to tell the truth.  The protesters, by the way, were those refined souls, those אצילי בני ישראל, whose cultural legacy voiced itself in the line I quoted a few weeks ago:
  אבער בדיבור הי' נהוג בכל העולם בכל הדורות לומר ימ"ש
(ימ"ש stands, of course, for ימח שמו.)

After Reb Chaim Stein was niftar, people said "why did nobody tell me about this great man?  Why did I have to wait until it was too late before I was told of what he was?  If only I had known, I would have jumped into an airplane and gone to see him before it was too late!"

There was once a Doctor Raphael Moller, a yekke, who occasionally saw the Satmarer Rov.  One time, he came into the waiting room, and the Chasidim, seeing a yekke with a short beard, kind of squashed him into a corner.  The Rebbe heard he was there and immediately brought him in to his room, and sent his Shamosh out to tell the people in the waiting room that they should take advantage of being able to look at Dr. Moller, because in Olam Haba, they won't be allowed into the same room with him.  (Heard from Dr. Moller's grandson, Rabbi Avraham Shimon Moller.  We don't make stories up.)

Well, my friends, now you know.  There is a Rav Steinman in Bnei Brak.  Get over there and look at him.  Learn something about him before you go, about his gadlus in Torah, about how little he eats, about his indefatigable energy in chesed and avodas hashem, prepare yourself by understanding what kind of person it is that you will be looking at.  In Olam Haba, you might not have the zechus to look at him.