Among the shailos that were brought to me on Yomtov was the following. Someone's wife made potato kugel on the second day of Rosh Hashannah, from scratch. The shailah as presented was,
1. Is this techina and therefore assur.
2. If it is techina, and it was assur, what do we do with the kugel.
The concept that making kugel involves tochein surprised several of my friends. Some did not know that tochein is assur on yomtov, others did not realize that grating potatoes is tochein, and others thought that since freshly made potato kugel tastes better, it's muttar even if it is tochein, just as grinding spices is muttar under those circumstances.
I'd be happy to hear what you would have said.
Reaction:
Someone sent this, from a website that does psakim from Rav Ovadia Yosef, apparently from his son, Rav Yitzchak Yosef.
לאור מה שלמדנו, נוכל ללמוד לגבי הכנת קציצות ירק (לטקס) ביום טוב, שהאשה לוקחת תפוחי אדמה, וגוררת אותם על ידי מורג חרוץ (פומפיה), ואחר כך עושה מהם עיסה ומטגנת קציצות. לכאורה היה נראה שאסור לעשות כן ביום טוב, משום שגרירת הירקות על ידי כלי המיוחד לכך, דומה למלאכת טוחן האסורה בשבת, ומלאכה זו אסורה גם ביום טוב, שהרי היא בכלל המלאכות הבאות לפני לישת הבצק, כאשר טוחנים את החטים לעשות מהן קמח. אולם למעשה מותר לגרור ביום טוב ירקות לצורך טיגון וכדומה, מפני שהיקלו חכמים בדבר במגררת פרטית שיש בבתים, מפני שאין דרך לגרור הרבה ירקות במגררת כזו, אלא מעט לפי מה שיש בו צורך ליום טוב עצמו. ומאחר ואי אפשר לגרור את הירקות מראש, שהרי טעמם מתקלקל לאחר יום, לכן יש להקל בדבר.'
I don't follow this logic. Maybe it's true that if you grate the potatoes before yomtov they'll lose flavor or turn black. But you could have made the kugel and put it into the refrigerator and warmed it up on yomtov. The difference between fresh baked and refrigerated two days ago and warmed up my be significant to some, but I find it hard to believe it makes it "ee efshar la'asos erev yomtov."
UPDATE
I spoke to my father in law, Harav Reuven Feinstein. He holds that it is assur to grate potatoes for a kugel on Yomtov. His psak came just in time, because I was beginning to doubt my earlier decision - perhaps the hetter we use by spices is subjective, and if so, would apply where the person believes the quality would be enhanced by freshness.
NEXT UPDATE
In the comments, you will see that Avrohom brings from Rav SB Cohen and Rav Yirmiahu Kaganoff that they are mattir.
Additionally, here is what the second most chashuveh person in Ma'aleh Adumim wrote.
I responded as follows:
Final Update
Reb Dovid Feinstein was mattir without any hestation. Fresh food is better and grinding before יום טוב is not an option.
Mutar lechatchila without a shinui. Period.
Finished.
Reaction:
Someone sent this, from a website that does psakim from Rav Ovadia Yosef, apparently from his son, Rav Yitzchak Yosef.
לאור מה שלמדנו, נוכל ללמוד לגבי הכנת קציצות ירק (לטקס) ביום טוב, שהאשה לוקחת תפוחי אדמה, וגוררת אותם על ידי מורג חרוץ (פומפיה), ואחר כך עושה מהם עיסה ומטגנת קציצות. לכאורה היה נראה שאסור לעשות כן ביום טוב, משום שגרירת הירקות על ידי כלי המיוחד לכך, דומה למלאכת טוחן האסורה בשבת, ומלאכה זו אסורה גם ביום טוב, שהרי היא בכלל המלאכות הבאות לפני לישת הבצק, כאשר טוחנים את החטים לעשות מהן קמח. אולם למעשה מותר לגרור ביום טוב ירקות לצורך טיגון וכדומה, מפני שהיקלו חכמים בדבר במגררת פרטית שיש בבתים, מפני שאין דרך לגרור הרבה ירקות במגררת כזו, אלא מעט לפי מה שיש בו צורך ליום טוב עצמו. ומאחר ואי אפשר לגרור את הירקות מראש, שהרי טעמם מתקלקל לאחר יום, לכן יש להקל בדבר.'
I don't follow this logic. Maybe it's true that if you grate the potatoes before yomtov they'll lose flavor or turn black. But you could have made the kugel and put it into the refrigerator and warmed it up on yomtov. The difference between fresh baked and refrigerated two days ago and warmed up my be significant to some, but I find it hard to believe it makes it "ee efshar la'asos erev yomtov."
UPDATE
I spoke to my father in law, Harav Reuven Feinstein. He holds that it is assur to grate potatoes for a kugel on Yomtov. His psak came just in time, because I was beginning to doubt my earlier decision - perhaps the hetter we use by spices is subjective, and if so, would apply where the person believes the quality would be enhanced by freshness.
NEXT UPDATE
In the comments, you will see that Avrohom brings from Rav SB Cohen and Rav Yirmiahu Kaganoff that they are mattir.
Additionally, here is what the second most chashuveh person in Ma'aleh Adumim wrote.
b'mchilat kvod torato please ask/ discuss with rav reuvein
i am old enough to remember that in washington heights my sainted great
-grandmother and all the holy offsprungs, and the whole kehilla,made
chopped liver every shabbat morning with the hock-messer.
my father confirms the details and adds that when he was a young yeshiva
student and protested the 'tochen" , rav breur pointed to MB who overtly
allows a hock messer on shabbat
the glorious resultant mush was much finer than anything that could be
done with a potato grater
[ the ingredients were NOT all cooked [ R"L some used raw onions ],
which should not affect our halacha anyway ]
also , i insist that halacha does not assume a refrigerator
if we can allow mortaring pepper corns what is the problem with potatoes ?
I responded as follows:
I agree. Reb Moshe agrees too. In OC 4 he says he holds like the Aruch Hashulchan who disagrees with the CA (and MB) who hold that a hackmesser is a kli of techina. ON THE OTHER HAND, he does hold that a ribaizen grater is derech techina.
Worse, the Beis Yosef's pshat in the Rambam specifically limits techina on peiros to cases where you're cooking/baking it afterwards, which applies here.
Bottom line, all that matters is whether it's true that fresh grated is better. Now let's agree that grated two days ago, even covered with plastic so it doesn't oxidize, is not as good as fresh grated. But why not grate it and bake it before yomtov? Is there a real difference between fresh baked (or if you're one of those, fresh fried,) and cooked two days ago? Or in your case, mister superior, cooked yesterday?
I don't know. I guess it's better straight out of the oven.
But is that minor difference significant enough?
My opinion has changed. I think fresh out of the oven is far better, and would be mattir techina now. I can see that others would disagree.
Final Update
Reb Dovid Feinstein was mattir without any hestation. Fresh food is better and grinding before יום טוב is not an option.
Mutar lechatchila without a shinui. Period.
Finished.