My father was not noheig like that, I am not noheig like that, and the Feinsteins are not noheig like that. Nobody I know is noheig like that. One might argue that this was just an oversight, and makom heinichu etc. But Reb Yossele Slutzker, a great poseik and a talmid of Reb Chaim Volozhiner, addressed the question and said that exactly this case happened once when he was in Reb Chaim Volozhiner's sukkah, and everyone yelled at him to make kiddush again, as the Magen Avraham (273 SK 5 DH Tzarich) says is necessary. Reb Chaim said it's not a problem, because כיון שהניח מקצת חבירים שנתחברו יחד כדי לצאת בקידוש זה וחזר לחביריו, it is like the halacha in in OC 178 that shinui makom does not create a new chiyuv bracha when you left chaveirim in the first place. This is in teshuva 7.
ואגב דקיימינן בהאי ענינא דקידוש במקום סעודה אמרתי לכתוב כאן מה ששמעתי מפ"ק אדמו"ר הגאןן המפורסם החסיד מהור"ר חיים זצןק"ל בעל נפש החיים בהיותינו יחד הוציא אןותנו בקידוש ליל א' של יו"ט ואחר הקידוש יצא אחד לחוץ ןחזר מיד ואוושו עליו שצריך לחזור ולקדש כמו דכתב המ"א בסימן רע"ג סק"ה ד"ה צריך כו' דאם יצא ממקומו בנתיים צריך לקדש שנית ואמר מורנו שאין צריך כיןן שהניח מקצת חבריס שנתחברו יחד כדי לצאת בקידוש זה וחזר לחביריו הו"ל כההיא דסימן קע"ח דבהניח מקצת חבריס אין צריך לחזןור ןלברך בשינוי מקוס ואע"ג שדבריו ז"ל אין צריך חיזןוק יש לצרף מה שראיתי בחידושי הריטב"א במסכת סוכה דף מ"ה ד"ה ורבה כו' דז"ל מיהו כי אמרינן דמברך על הסוכה כל זמן שנכנס בה היינו כשיוצא מתחלה יציאה גמורה לעשות ענינו ושלא לחזור לאלתר דהוי כחליצה דתפילין אבל לא יצא מתחלה אלא לדבר עס חבירו אן להביא דבר לסוכה לצורך שעתו לא הויא יציאה כלל לחייבו בברכה כשחוזר וכיוצא בזה לענין ברכת נהנין כשעמד בתוך הסעודה על דעת לחזור לאלתר שאינן טעןון ברכה לאחריו ולא לפנין ולקבעי הדר ואע"פ שלא הניח שס זקן אן חולה וכדפרישנא בדוכתא עכ"ל הריטב"א וצ"ע שלא הביאו דעתו כלל וכפי העולה בזכרוני ראיתי פ"א בכנה"ג דחולק על גוף הדין של המ"א ואין הספר ת"י לעיין בן ועיין בח"ש מה דכתבנן בדברי המג"א סימן קפ"ד סק"ג
Josh and Avi put their finger on something that I was wonderring about, which is that the teshuva implies that if everyone was out of the sukkah, they would indeed have to repeat the kiddush. I agree, it does seem that way. The only reason I'm not 100% sure is because Reb Yossele in that teshuva says that while Reb Chaim doesn't need validation, he did find a Ritva in Sukkah 45, as follows.מ"ה ד"ה ורבה כו' דז"ל מיהו כי אמרינן דמברך על הסוכה כל זמן שנכנס בה היינו כשיוצא מתחלה יציאה גמורה לעשות ענינו ושלא לחזור לאלתר דהוי כחליצה דתפילין אבל לא יצא מתחלה אלא לדבר עם חבירו או להביא דבר לסוכה לצורך שעתו לא הויא יציאה כלל לחייבו בברכה כשחוזר וכיוצא בזה לענין ברכת נהנין כשעמד בתוך הסעודה על דעת לחזור לאלתר שאינן טעון ברכה לאחריו ולא לפניו ולקבעי' הדר ואע"פ שלא הניח שם זקן אן חולה וכדפרישנא בדוכתא עכ"ל הריטב"א וצ"ע שלא הבאו דעתו כלל
Clearly, he disagrees with the essential din of the Magen Avraham. In any case, I am not confident that he intended to pasken like that. I believe he only wanted to say what Reb Chaim said, and I agree that Reb Chaim's statement does support the idea that if everyone goes out, at least if they all go out at once, they have to make kiddush again.
In one sense, this is a big chiddush, because hesech hadaas is more chamur by kiddush than it is by brachos, as the Biur Halacha says in 178. On the other hand, assuming that heini'ach means it's not a hefesk, in other words, if the circumstances are clear that you absolutely intend to return and only walked out for a momentary need, then it's not a hefsek,, then your requirement to return and eat there because you made kiddush there (and that the kiddush would become a bracha levatala if it was batteil) creates the biggest possible keviyus.
In teshuva 22, he says a tremendous chiddush, a fascinating chumra, that coincidentally was also said by my oldest son, Reb Mordechai. He says that even though you're not chayav to eat peiros in the sukkah, but if you're in middle of a meal and walk into the house, you can not eat peiros. Your achila doesn't need a new bracha because it's part of the keviyus seuda- so it's a keviyus, and it cannot be outside of the sukkah. It's a pretty strong svara.
In teshuva 22, he says a tremendous chiddush, a fascinating chumra, that coincidentally was also said by my oldest son, Reb Mordechai. He says that even though you're not chayav to eat peiros in the sukkah, but if you're in middle of a meal and walk into the house, you can not eat peiros. Your achila doesn't need a new bracha because it's part of the keviyus seuda- so it's a keviyus, and it cannot be outside of the sukkah. It's a pretty strong svara.
The sefer is not on hebrewbooks, but it is available in Otzar Hahochma, if you have a subscription.
שו"ת רבינו יוסף מסלוצק. He writes beautifully, and he was the Rebbi muvhak of Reb Michaleh Trestiner, Reb Moshe's uncle, who made Reb Moshe's father's shidduch (but with a tnai, that Reb Dovid Feinstein drop his Kaidaner Chasidus, spend some years in Volozhin, and adopt minhagei haGra. Funny thing is that even after Reb Dovid did this, he was the dayan, and then the Rov, of the Kaidaner kehillah in his town.)
Avi, in the comments, tells us that this is also said in modern sefarim, from Rav Feinhandler, and lhbchlch Rav Nissin Karelitz and Rav Ch Kanievsky. I would add that this depends, of course, on whether you would make a bracha on the peiros or drink. In other words, if it's at desert time and you're in the house taking an apple, it is likely that you ought to make a bracha on the apple itself because it's not lelafeis es hapas. Even if you don't make a bracha, or if you would remove the safek by eating it with bread, there is enough reason to say that it's not part of the keviyus of the meal, and so it would be muttar to eat outside of the sukkah. Although you might see this as a safek bittul asei, I would say that since you're away from your meal, and it's not really lelafeis, there is no safek at all.
Avi, in the comments, tells us that this is also said in modern sefarim, from Rav Feinhandler, and lhbchlch Rav Nissin Karelitz and Rav Ch Kanievsky. I would add that this depends, of course, on whether you would make a bracha on the peiros or drink. In other words, if it's at desert time and you're in the house taking an apple, it is likely that you ought to make a bracha on the apple itself because it's not lelafeis es hapas. Even if you don't make a bracha, or if you would remove the safek by eating it with bread, there is enough reason to say that it's not part of the keviyus of the meal, and so it would be muttar to eat outside of the sukkah. Although you might see this as a safek bittul asei, I would say that since you're away from your meal, and it's not really lelafeis, there is no safek at all.
Am I misreading your citation, or does the heter not work unless hini'ach miktzas chaveirim - but if everyone left the sukkah, the chalos shem seudah would be battel?
ReplyDeleteI had the same question as Josh.
ReplyDeleteJosh, Avi, I edited to post to address your important point. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteRav Eisenberg,
ReplyDeleteRe teshuva 22, I saw in a sefer called shloshim yom kodem lechag that he brings this as halacha, that peiros eaten as part of a seuda need to be eaten in the sukkah. He brings this in the name of Shut אבני ישפה (chelek aleph siman 121) as well as Rav Nissim Karelitz and Reb Chaim Kanievsky (brought in sefer sukas chaim page 280).
I believe that in those same sefarim they pasken not like what we brought from Reb Chaim Volozhiner re kiddush. It's not surprising, really, since many hold that the din hefsek by kiddush bemakom seuda is more chamur than the din hefsek by brachos, as the Biur Halacha says in 178, so Reb Chaim is a big chiddush.
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