For the people that insist on marei mekomos here are the two mekoros. First, the Magen Avraham 672 sk 3. The Magen Avraham brings from the Darkei Moshe that there is no point in letting the candles burn past a half hour, and there's no benefit from using giant candles. The Magen Avraham says that the first point is certainly true: There is absolutely no benefit, or hiddur, to use more oil. Use half an hours worth and not a drop more! But he says that if you're using candles, it's nice to use a big one, just as we find that a big lulav is called a hiddur. So those of you that 1. use oil, and 2. are makpid on a big lulav, and 3. are meikil in venishmartem, go ahead and use a big candle. I would think that the little tiny possible hiddur involved is not worth even a ספיק ספיקא דנפשות. BUT! even according to the Magen Avraham, you can fulfill this hiddur by using big candles and blowing them out.
Mekoros for for the opposite conclusion:.
שאילץ יעב"ץ א ד ד"ה כיון, but you don't have to hold like the Yavetz, especially since the Tur, the Mechaber, the Rama, and the Magen Avraham say the opposite..
The Maharam Shik on the Sefer HaMitzvos #98. He brings a raya from Tosfos in Beitza 22a that more oil is better because it produces a larger flame. I don't believe his idea is accepted by anyone, because it's just not consistent with reality. Reb Avrohom Wagner says that lemaiseh the raya from Tosfos is good. I say that in order that there shouldn't be a stira between Tosfos and reality, we can say that their oil or their wicks or their lamps were different than ours, so the hiddur of more oil/bigger flame no longer pertains. I was thinking about making a video of a oil lamp with different levels of oil to demonstrate the point, but I'm going to delay that project until the advent of my second childhood.
It is true that the svara of the Tur and the Mechaber in 672 really only applies where we light for the people in the street. Where you light for the household, or even in Israel where the street doesn't empty till late at night, it could be argued that the ikker mitzva continues longer. Indeed, Reb Moshe says this in the Hearos to Bameh Madlikin #11. But as the Aruch HaShulchan says, the mitzva remains as Chazal instituted it - half an hour, equal to ad shetichleh.
Fire Commissioner Daniel Nigro says everyone in the house was asleep when a neighbor reported the fire around 2:30 a.m. in the Sheepshead Bay neighborhood.
UPDATE DECEMBER 2020
The Bach in 672 brings from the Maharshal that some have a minag to leave them burning till they burn out.
However, the Aruch Hashulchan says that most people do NOT have this minhag. If you don't know that you have it, then YOU DO NOT HAVE IT!
Second, the Machtzis Hashekel/Elya Rabba says that even if you have the minhag, making a tnai will allow you to extinguish after half an hour.
So: if you're nervous, Maybe I have the minhag! Then go make a tnai. If you want, you can make the tnai every year at Hataras nedarim. It is not nearly as serious as, for example, gebrokts.
Bach:
מיהו
ה"ר ירוחם כתב דיש מהגאונים שכתבו דאפי' אחר שיעור זה אסור להשתמש לאורה
עכ"ל ומהרש"ל בתשובה כתב הטעם דאסור מפני הרואה שלא ידע לחלק אבל יכול
לכבותם עכ"ל ומיהו המנהג להחמיר שלא לכבותן ואסור להתיר להן וכמ"ש רבי'
לעיל בסי' תר"ע ועוד נלע"ד דכיון דאיכא תרי לישני ורוב פוסקים מפרשי'
דפליגי ור"י ור"ת כתבו דנהגו כלשון ראשון וללשון ראשון אסור לכבותן או
להשתמש לאורן לאחר שדלקו השיעור שהרי ללשון ראשון לא הוזכר שום שיעור והכל שוה
א"כ מדינא נמי אסור ואע"ג דקי"ל כלשון שני דצריך ליתן שמן בנר
שידליק חצי שעה היינו דוקא להחמיר אנו תופסין כמותו אבל לא להקל ולכן יראה דאף
לעצמו אין להקל לכבותן ואצ"ל שלא יורה כך לאחרים ודלא כמ"ש מהרש"ל
דיכול לכבותן וכ"כ בספר צידה לדרך ויש מדקדקים שלא לכבותה ולא להשתמש לאורה
הואיל ושם השמן למצוה עכ"ל ובמסכת סופרים איתא להדיא ואין מגביהין ממקומו עד
שיכבה ואע"פ דבהגהת מיימונית מפרש דהיינו דוקא כשהשים בו שמן כשיעור מצומצם
לא אתברר לן מנ"ל לפרש כך להקל. ולקמן בס"ס תרע"ז יתבאר דאפי' לאחר
שכבה מעצמו אסור:
Aruch Hashulchan 672:9
אם נתן הרבה שמן בנר, יותר מהשיעור – יכול לכבותה לאחר שהדליקה חצי שעה. וגם מותר אחר כך להשתמש לאורה, שלא הוקצה למצותה רק כפי השיעור. ויש מי שאומר דלכבותה – מותר, אבל להשתמש לאורה – אסור (שם סעיף קטן ד בשם רש"ל), דבשימוש אין היכר בין קודם הזמן לאחר הזמן. ויש שכתבו שהמנהג גם שלא לכבות (שם בשם ב"ח). ובוודאי אם המנהג כן – אין לשנות, אבל אצלינו נהגו לכבות.
Machatzis Hashekel and Elya Rabba, brought in Rav Shvadron's Daas Torah:
One more thing:
As it happens, Rabbi Yair Hoffman wrote about this recently, and he comes to the same conclusion, with citation to the Chazon Ish and the Chafetz Chaim in their own behavior. Here is an alternative link to his article.
Why aren't there notices all over the Jewish papers and videos from Gedolei Yisroel with this eiza and other eizas which we could take advice from the Fire Brigade authorities? I understand talking in shule is a problem etc etc, but isn't this issue one of pikuach nefeshos?
ReplyDeleteAcrtually, Avrohom, Hatzolah does what they can in this regard -- with ads, emails, even messages on the side of "heimish" brand breakfast cereals.
ReplyDeleteAs for "videos from gedolei Yisrael"... If we need a gadol to tell us that fire is dangerous, we're too dumb to be saved.
R' R Yitzchak Eisenman, of Ahavas Yisrael of Passaic, sent an email to his congregation (including us associate members) that was along the lines of this post. More powerfully so, since he is the poseiq for much of the readership.
Passaic has lost a couple of homes to Chanukah fires, thankfully, no lives ba"h. Most spectacularly was the home of a local dentist, which spread to his home office, where canisters of compressed gas exploded.
It's not up on the shul's website yet, so it doesn't pay yet to check the following link. But it should be at the Short Vort archives eventually.
Thank you very, very, much Reb Micha. I'm looking forward to seeing what he says!
DeleteRe: the Maharam Shick, on the one hand if you reject his assertion that more oil makes a bigger flame, aren't you arguing on the explanation of most rishonim as to why moving a neir is both mav'ir and mechabeh? On the flipside, though, who says a bigger flame is more hadar? The Yerushalmi in Yoma (and Rashi in Menachos) implies that the wicks used in the menoray during the long winter nights were medium thickness, and in the summer they were thickened to use the oil up faster. Why, if a bigger flame is nicer, would they not use thicker wicks even in the winter? (Not a strong raaya, I know, but still...)
ReplyDeleteSomeone told me this year that if you want to blow out your chanukah candles after half an hour, you need to make a tnai before you light them that you only want the mitzvah to last the required time otherwise when you blow them out, you are blowing out a mitzva. Does this sevara make sense to you or do you know of any mekor for this? It is such an important issue because here in Australia we light quite late and the whole house may be asleep before the candles go out and there are serious pikuach nefesh issues so I would love to understand whether there is such a requirement or that is being machmir on ner chanuka and meikel on pikuach nefesh.
ReplyDeleteThank you for pointing this out. I have always relied on the Aruch Hashulchan in 672:9 that says that since the Bach is machmir only based on Minhag, if you do not know that you have such a minhag, you can feel free to extinguish after half an hour. I was pleased to see the current article from R Yair Hoffman that comes to the same conclusion, namely that
Delete"However, it is cited in the name of both the Chofetz Chaim (Meir Einei Yisroel Vol. I p. 62) as well as the Chazon Ish (Orchos Rabbeinu Vol. III Chanukah #45 both cited in Sukkas Chaim p. 112) that they did put out the Chanukah candles after 30 minutes. The Aruch HaShulchan also writes that the general custom is to allow extinguishing the flame, but if one’s minhag is not to do so, then one should follow his own Minhag."
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1929120/putting-out-the-chanukah-candles-after-30-minutes.html
Please do not let people tell you that they think they have this minhag. And if they say they are machmir, also false. Chumra is where you know of the different opinions and choose to be machmir. If you are machmir because you think it's assur, then when you find out it is muttar, the chumra evaporates.
Have a beautiful Chanuka. I still regret declining when offered to come and help build a kollel in Melbourne when I was in Ner Israel in seventy something.
I should have added that it is absolutely clear, as the Machatzis Hashekel says, that if you make a tnai you can put them out. I was saying that you don't need a tnai. But to eliminate any doubt at all, just make a tnai, as you said.
DeleteThere is still a great opportunity in Melbourne for a talmid chochom with a funder to become a Rosh Yeshiva and set up a post high school Yeshiva here. I think that would be the greatest thing that would absolutely transform Melbourne's frum community.
ReplyDeleteAnd that's the formula for success anywhere. Here in Chicago, several new yeshivos have opened, all with a Rosh Yeshiva of great stature and charisma PLUS an individual with enormous assets that is totally dedicated to the success of the yeshiva. Rajchenbach's Kollel, Schnell and Meystel's yeshiva, Kohen's yeshiva, it's like having Rav Rudderman and Herman Neuberger, except that the Neuberger doesn't have to go out and raise money.
DeleteThe difference is that in Melbourne we don't have a post high school yeshiva. And I think that is the reason Melbourne can never really grow. It can stay the same, but can't attract a bigger frum community. I believe when Rav Weinberg visited Melbourne about 25 years ago or so, he said the same thing. Without a post high school yeshiva, the community won't grow. I assume in Chicago, there already are fine post high school yeshivos. An additional one is great, but it isn't community changing. In Melbourne, a great Rosh Yeshiva for a post high school yeshiva would be community changing.
ReplyDeleteWow, here in Chicago, as is the case in other large cities in the US, there is tremendous competition to open yeshivos, and most of them are or intend to eventually be Post high school yeshivos. Where in the past one or two was plenty, now there are five or six. I am sure that time will come for Melbourne, as it did for Chicago, to the surprise of all and consternation of many.
Delete