Chicago Chesed Fund

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Tuesday, October 10, 2017

Sukkos ayin ches, 2017

1. It's common knowledge that you can only use those lulav holders made out of palm leaves to hold the lulav. This almost universally acknowledged fact is false. You can use rubber bands if you like.
See MB 651 SK 9 and 10, and Aruch Hashulchan there sk 5. You really don't need the poskim to hold your hand, ,because it's practically mefurash in the Gemara there after the mishna on 36b about Reb Yehuda and the Rabannan about iggud. Once you know that although binding the three minim is not necessary, but is viewed in halacha as an enhancement of the beauty of the lulav or the kiyum hamitzva, and once you know that whatever is used for noi is not chotzeitz, there's nothing to talk about.
The reason this mistake is so popular is because when it comes to some other interposition between the hand and the lulav, perhaps even a ring on your finger, the issue of chatzitza and the din of min b'mino do become relevant. That is not the case where the other material is serving the mitzva by enhancing the kiyum or the appearance.
The Kappos Temarim there does say that chasidim and anshei maaseh use palm holders, like we do; but if you'll look at the KT inside, you will quickly realize that his first teretz is a reeeeal stretch - a concept completely unheard of l'halacha -  and that his second teretz is most logical. True, he does say that chasidim and anshei maaseh use the palm leaf holders, but I'm neither, and you probably aren't, either. If it's easier, or nicer, to use Raffit (really great stuff!! Check out their entire line!!) or ribbons or leather or Livestrong rubber wrist bands, it's 100% fine.
This is especially useful towards the end of the yomtov, when things are starting to fall apart. Just toss the humdrum holder and use something beautiful.

2. Black leaves on aravos are fine. The din of shinui mareh being considered serious enough to passel is only applied to Esrogim.

Allow me to qualify "fine." It's not beautiful, and if you have the option of using new green ones, you certainly should.

I verified the black leave answer with my father in law who said that as long as they're not dry they're kosher.


In a stunning coincidence, this morning, Hoshanna Rabba, I was davening in the Yeshiva of Staten Island in front of an old friend. He is an adam chashuv by any standard: a baal mussar, an life-long expert marbitz Torah - eight grade rebbi for forty years, now a tenth grade rebbi in one of the most intense yeshivos in the US, and so forth. His wife asked me not to mention him by name, because he should have gotten over his annoyance with greedy aravah sellers and gotten fresh aravos, and le'mayseh rubber bands are not exactly shpitz hiddur, but he lives on Pleasant Plains Avenue in Staten Island.
Here is a picture of his lulav.


Blackened Aravos and Rubber Bands! How nice of him to provide an illustration for this post!



UPDATE
Reb Avrohom Wagner said a he'ara on my first point. He notes that the Mishna Berurua in 651:8 brings from the Tshuvos Agura B'ohelecha that he's "metzadeid" to allow those lulav holders even though the lashon of the poskim is that they should be "kashur," which might imply knots. Reb Avrohom says that the MB's is not comfortable with the Mishna Berura's reliance on the Agura B'ohelehca. 
Here are the words of the Mishna Berura:
ח בקשר גמור - ולא בעניבה דאין זה קשר הנאסר בשבת ויו"ט ולא מקרי אגד ועיין בתשובת אגורה באהלך שמצדד דמה שנוהגין העולם שלא לעשות קשר אלא עושין מן עלי לולב כמין בית יד ותוחבין הלולב בו ג"ז בכלל קשר ע"ש

This is how I responded in the comments.

I don't understand what you mean. Bishlema if egged is a din deoraysa for the tzura of the mitzva, you can be mechaleik between kesharim. But if it's meshum noi, what possible logic is there to say there's more noi if it's a kesher shel kayomo? Anything that firmly holds them together is noi, whether the concept is based on appearance of hiddur in the kiyum of the mitzvah. This is, indeed, what the Agura Bohalecha says in response to machmirim - 
ואנוכי הדיוט לא ראיתי טענה מספקת דהא לדידן דלא צריך אגד אלא לנוי וכי גזירה היא ב׳ קשרי' ודאי דהיינו טעמא דבב׳ קשרים איכא נוי ומהדק יפה ולא משלפי לכאן ולכאן משאיב בעניבה


I admit, though, that the Mishna Berura seems to hold that you do need a double knot mamesh, and he only mentions the Agura B'O in a lukewarm way - עיין בתשובת אגורה באהלך שמצדד - like a bedieved. I am confident that in the case of a firm binding, unlike a mere bow, it's hard to believe there's anything to worry about. But I was wrong about the Kugel, and maybe I'm wrong now, too. Decide on your own.



10 comments:

  1. Note however the chaye adam does menrion a minhag tov of getting new fresh aravos during sukkos

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    1. Definitely; if you can. I believe the Rosh says that it's nice to get new ones every day.

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  2. Is the Chaye Adam referring to new fresh aravos in terms of them not being dry at all? Or would it apply to a simple shinui mareh as well where only the color has changed but they don't seem to show any dryness (ie the color change does not seem to be a function of dryness)? I guess the question is does the green color have any intrinsic value (maybe more beautiful?) or is it just a siman of not being dry

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    1. Right. My shver says that as long as it's not black because it's desiccated, it's kosher. He would not say that "Black is beautiful," but it's kosher.

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  3. According to the divrei siach that they give out in shul, Rav Chaim Kaneivsky changes his aravos when they get dried out, approximately every other day.
    I'm being medayek in you're "if it's.... nicer' that there is possibly more hiddur mitzva with pink raffit than fancy braided lulav pieces?

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    1. In this case, "nicer" is a personal assessment. A good friend of mine just came back from two days in Moscow on business, and he used cable ties. That was of course a matter of convenience. But the fact is that towards the end of yomtov, the lulav bands start to fall off and untie and generally are inconvenient if not dismal looking.
      Also, I'm a big fan of Raffit beyond the fact that it's really pretty. The company was founded and is owned by relatives of mine, a couple of real yiras shamayim and with beautiful souls.

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  4. Another point to ponder is that those being "mehader" to use the "koishikel" made of lulav leaves often neglect to tie them tightly to the lulav in a way that makes the minim unable to be separated without untying the knot. While the MB cites the Agura B'oholcha saying that the "koishikel" is considered a kesher, it seems clear from the sugya and the poskim that the kesher lechatchila needs to be a: a kesher shel kayama, such that it may not be tied or untied on yom tov (only if he forgot may he use a bow, bediavad), b: tied in such a way that the minim cannot be separated while the kesher is tied. A "koishikel" by itself satisfies neither of these requirements.

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  5. I don't understand what you mean. Bishlema if egged is a din deoraysa for the tzura of the mitzva, you can be mechaleik between kesharim. But if it's mechum noi, what possible logic is there to say there's more noi if it's a kesher shel kayomo? Anything that firmly holds them together is noi, whether the concept is based on appearance of hiddur in the kiyum of the mitzvah. This is, indeed, what the Agura Bohalecha says in response to machmirim -
    ואנוכי הדיוט לא ראיתי טענה מספקת דהא לדידן דלא צריך אגד אלא לנוי וכי גזירה היא ב׳ קשרי' ודאי דהיינו טעמא דבב׳ קשרים איכא נוי ומהדק יפה ולא משלפי לכאן ולכאן משאיב בעניבה
    And second, where's the percentage in disagreeing with the MB's advice? It doesn't bother me that he says "metzadeid."
    ח בקשר גמור - ולא בעניבה דאין זה קשר הנאסר בשבת ויו"ט ולא מקרי אגד ועיין בתשובת אגורה באהלך שמצדד דמה שנוהגין העולם שלא לעשות קשר אלא עושין מן עלי לולב כמין בית יד ותוחבין הלולב בו ג"ז בכלל קשר ע"ש

    If you want to see the AbO inside, it's here.
    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=19746&st=&pgnum=32

    You know what? I think I'll put this into the post.

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    1. The problem is that the Gemara and poskim introduce aniva only as a bediavad, if one forgot to tie it before Yom Tov. This even according to the Rabanan for whom egged is only a function of noy (since according to Rav Yehuda even aniva is a kesher).

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